Scottish Government report on the 'Restocking Options' study

[Calluna4u]

I can't see how Germany and Denmark can produce commercial quantities of queens and UK can't

If imports are stopped though you can be pretty certain that UK queen breeders will emerge to supply the market

Suggesting a new mated Carniolan would be less likely to swarm than an overwintered queen C4u ?
I like Carniolan but wouldn't try and spin that one

1. They don't really, and that's in a really favourable more continental climate than our with much more reliable summer weather. Sure, Ringkobing and Saint Andrews are on the same latitude, but the weather moves, on average, sw to ne in this part of the world, so Denmark has a climate more like Kent. The queens they take to Italy for grafting and mating are selected breeders.

2. Not very likely. Why they have not emerged already, in times when wages and cost were far lower kind of tells its own story. The top guy only claims to manage a maximum of 2000 a season. There are higher claims but they are held in some suspicion.

3. Without shadow of a doubt yes. I don't suggest it. I know it. From direct experience over many years.

However, before this gets misinterpreted.........even NEW season queens can swarm. The idea that they will not is a partial myth, but they are a lot less likely to. You have to compare apples with apples as well. A lower vigour second season queen may indeed be less likely to swarm than a new queen of a more vigorous strain. I prefer to compare like with like.

[mbc]

2. Not very likely. Why they have not emerged already, in times when wages and cost were far lower kind of tells its own story. The top guy only claims to manage a maximum of 2000 a season. There are higher claims but they are held in some suspicion.

.

There has never been a time when home produced queens could be reared at a comparable cost to imports from further south.
If I were honest about my own queen rearing efforts, then I only get about 50% success for all the effort of setting it all up, that is 5 usable queens for every 10 cells grafted, after the attrition of larvae not accepted, virgins not hatching or not getting mated. I believe professional outfits here get a better strike rate, but they are also below some of the success rates achieved further south.
It would take import tariffs or closed borders to make queen rearing here competitive on price with queens raised and mated on the continent.
This isnt going to happen so we need to out compete the imports on something other than cost to make queen rearing on a large scale viable for british producers. I believe sustainability could be our competitive angle, our queens mated by our drones could be far more sustainable in the medium to long term as successive generations are more likely o be stable and useful to us than the progeny of foreign queens mated to our drones.
This scenario would hold more water if we had a uniform(ish) bee of our own, sadly this isnt the case as we've got the hotsh potsh we've got through generations of imports and no central vision for our own queen breeding.
But anyway, the argument that if imports were stopped then uk breeders would emerge to fill the gap is spot on, just never likely to happen.

[Calluna4u]

But anyway, the argument that if imports were stopped then uk breeders would emerge to fill the gap is spot on, just never likely to happen.

I doubt it. there has to be some concept of viability for anyone to do it at sufficient scale. Unless honey prices rise dramatically then high priced queens from the UK are just seen as an increased cost in an already marginal profession.

What would actually happen, as has happened in the past, is if the beekeeper deems it too expensive, and most do not have the time to do queen breeding of any scale on top, is that they will just use their natural cells and have to take what comes out in the mix. Some will set up breeding programmes, other will not and just raise what they can on an ad hoc basis. That has been the British way for a long time, and cutting off the route to early mated laying queens will just institutionalise the way it has been done for years.

We are charging 30 pounds for the home bred new seasons queens. I do not expect many orders from professionals at such a price.

[mbc]

I doubt it. there has to be some concept of viability for anyone to do it at sufficient scale. Unless honey prices rise dramatically then high priced queens from the UK are just seen as an increased cost in an already marginal profession.

What would actually happen, as has happened in the past, is if the beekeeper deems it too expensive, and most do not have the time to do queen breeding of any scale on top, is that they will just use their natural cells and have to take what comes out in the mix. Some will set up breeding programmes, other will not and just raise what they can on an ad hoc basis. That has been the British way for a long time, and cutting off the route to early mated laying queens will just institutionalise the way it has been done for years.

We are charging 30 pounds for the home bred new seasons queens. I do not expect many orders from professionals at such a price.

It would need someone well respected in the game to prove on a large scale that there was a good return on that £30 for a queen

[The Drone Ranger]

doubt it. there has to be some concept of viability for anyone to do it at sufficient scale.

We are charging 30 pounds for the home bred new seasons queens. I do not expect many orders from professionals at such a price.

Well if they are from your best stock and they get advertised in SBA mag and BeeCraft you might be pleasantly surprised
If someone ordered 300 queens from you and you could deliver I suspect the price would be a bit flexible ?


Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

[The Drone Ranger]

On the rape C4u if the colony is big enough to do well its probably going to try and swarm as the blossom starts to diminish
That's true of a new season carnie or overwintered hybrid
The AMM boys would argue their bees don't swarm in May but that's because they build up too slowly for rape anyway
That should pretty much upset everyone I suppose but its only my opinion
Are any of the UK queen breeders approaching the task using Instrumental Insemination prakel ?

Sent from my S208 using Tapatalk

[Calluna4u]

On the rape C4u if the colony is big enough to do well its probably going to try and swarm as the blossom starts to diminish
That's true of a new season carnie or overwintered hybrid
The AMM boys would argue their bees don't swarm in May but that's because they build up too slowly for rape anyway
That should pretty much upset everyone I suppose but its only my opinion

New season carnica of reliable provenance are not available, other than from NZ, at a time to even come close to testing this. You get them in as early as the end of April or early May....introduce and wait for brood to hatch.....its only turning round into build up at the end of May. Thus misses the OSR. The NZ carnica were very low swarming stock indeed, but we have stopped working with those for now. We are far more interested in them building for around 7th to 15th July, to be moved to the Bell. New seasons queens can effectively be left to get on with building that.

I have opinions on the instrumental insemination too, but you directed that to prakel so I will hold me tongue on that.

Your opinion on the Amm vs OSR situation pretty much matches my own. Some colonies do well, but many are a lot slower.

[prakel]

Really? Where will their selected breeding stock come from?

Are any of the UK queen breeders approaching the task using Instrumental Insemination prakel ?

DR, I've quoted from both of our posts as I'm assuming that you're referring to that specific part of my post... that being the case then the answer must surely be yes. But, I'm totally ignorant as to how successful they are in establishing sound lines which are worth spending money on or how easy it is to get hold of queens from them although I have been on a few waiting lists for British queens over the years without actually ever getting to the top. I've also had a breeder refuse to sell to me on the grounds that I live in the wrong area.

I have opinions on the instrumental insemination too, but you directed that to prakel so I will hold me tongue on that.

Please don't, not on my account. I'm too inexperienced to comment on the finer points of II queens. But I'm keen to try and learn from your own experience if you'd care to elaborate.

[Calluna4u]

Please don't, not on my account. I'm too inexperienced to comment on the finer points of II queens. But I'm keen to try and learn from your own experience if you'd care to elaborate.

I am sensitive to the fact that it could be seen as some kind of attempt to saturate the forum, and do not enter any more than a few of the threads I could. The poster specifically addressed you, so left it at that.

However, the increasing use of II does concern me rather. I fear it is becoming too much used in situations where it is less than optimal to do so and is a risk factor for causing inbreeding issues.

I know its not the most popular opinion round here but the heavy focus in on one ideal model of bee and promoting the idea of maintaining it, even in small scale units, by II is a real danger to genetic diversity. Vigour and population resistance to threats come from that very diversity that seems to be in the crosshairs of those with a narrow idea of what bee we should have, and even small beekeepers with half a dozen hives are being encouraged to do II, and to spend a lot of money on insemination gear and training.
I do not consider this to be safe or wise.

I have had II queens several in the past. They are less easy to introduce and less likely to be excellent. They CAN be and we have had some really excellent II queens that went on for years, but among II queens it was maybe 30% or a bit less, and with naturally mated it was much better.

To me II is a breeding tool. It is best used to produce mother queens of known quality and lineage, from which grafting is done and normal production queens are then open mated to a gene pool of many lines. Brood fertility is best this way. Its main use is thus in producing the breeder queens which are then disseminated among the beekeeping community, either as breeder queens or via their open mated progeny being sold on. The potential loss of sex alleles must always be thought about.

In short I feel it to be a tool that is of great worth but with considerable potential to be used the wrong way and that a genetic bottleneck can happen down the line, and inbreeding can follow from it. It has happened before and will happen again, and the over inbred unit needs a rapid genetic input.

Having said all that, Jolanta WILL be properly trained (abroad) and will be doing II, but ONLY for the production of breeder queens to trial and select from. All queens intended to go out and earn the cash in the field, or be sold on to head working colonies will still be open mated. When paying wages too, its a hopelessly costly process to use II as a main production tool.

[The Drone Ranger]

It's a question of control because isolated mating is not generally available in UK
I get the impression that the biggest queen producers use II
I'm happy to be told they don't


Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk