Scottish Government report on the 'Restocking Options' study

[gavin]

Many thanks to everyone who helped in one way or another with this. The report was published earlier on the Scottish Government's web site. Link at the bottom of this page.

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/farmingru...e/bee/strategy

Happy to have some discussion here if you like. There should be a lot to mull over. Weather data and queen mating in Scotland. Routes to achieving greater sustainability in bee stocks. Cross-community collaboration. The data presented on the preferences of the two communities.

cheers

Gavin

[Kate Atchley]

Many thanks to everyone who helped in one way or another with this. The report was published earlier on the Scottish Government's web site. Link at the bottom of this page.

http://www.gov.scot/Topics/farmingru...e/bee/strategy

Happy to have some discussion here if you like. There should be a lot to mull over. Weather data and queen mating in Scotland. Routes to achieving greater sustainability in bee stocks. Cross-community collaboration. The data presented on the preferences of the two communities.

cheers

Gavin

Thanks for guiding me through your report at the weekend Gavin. As you say, much to mull over. I was pleased to hear about the preferences you identified among non-commercial beekeepers for locally bred queens and an avoidance of imports.

It's left me eager to understand more precisely the conditions in which our Amm queens will fly and mate. Clearly they don't wait for 20º and the sunshine often quoted as essential (as almost no queens would be mated here). There may be nothing for it but to create a weather station in Ardnamurchan though I know nothing about these. Davis equipment may be the place to start if we can find some funding?

Any experience of this amongst you folk out there?

[drumgerry]

Just read the commercial section up to 2.3 so far and there are some encouraging voices to be heard within that. Can't help feeling though that some still want cheap queens when they want them ie imports early in the season. Some commercial guys from the comments seem to have a bit more vision for the future. One thing's for sure in my opinion is that a shift away from what's gone before is needed and I'm encouraged that there are some commercial beekeepers who are thinking along similar lines.

Great work Gavin and all who contributed. It's a true snapshot of beekeeping in Scotland in 2015/16 and I can see it will have historical significance for historians of the future.

[drumgerry]

On the weather station front (!) Kate - we are part of a network of weather stations (ie we have a weather station in our garden) run by this guy

http://www.highlandweather.info/

He is a hobby/semi-commercial weather enthusiast and as you can see he has weather stations all over the Highlands (much better coverage than the Met Office). He is always expanding his network and might be interested in putting a weather station into your area (it looks like he has a gap in coverage there). It doesn't cost us anything and we have a little computer display in the kitchen which gives us all the weather data we could ever need. This data is then fed to his network using our wifi every 10 minutes.

His daily forecast btw is the best out there for the Highlands. Even if he doesn't put a weather station into your garden he could point you in the right direction of the tech that he uses. His name is Lee and he also has a FB page here

https://www.facebook.com/highlandweather/?fref=ts

[Calluna4u]

Can't help feeling though that some still want cheap queens when they want them ie imports early in the season..

Its not nearly as simple as that. Early queens ARE needed. The 2000 queens (just from the queen unit btw) and the hundreds of nucs is us, but I am not so foolish to think that this is the answer. Its just PART of the answer.

Last season and this season illustrate perfectly the catch in the ideas raised that I mentioned at the Battleby event where Gavin's document was presented.

Least year the nucs came through OK but only about 60% could have been described as saleable. Losses were generally in the medium range last year and demand for nucs was strong. Superficially viable to set up to produce them for sale.

This year we have an easy winter and 80% plus of the nucs will be fit for sale in April............but..............after a kind winter demand is modest (not just for nucs, for packages too). Not a major issue as we plan to use most ourselves anyway. However its a reality check for the breeding programme. In the years where demand is high due to losses, we will also be affected by the same circumstances and thus the nucs will be scarcer and of lesser quality. In a year when most of the nucs come through so will most peoples bees.

If there is not market stability who is going to risk the house setting up to do all these thousands of nucs and queens. Its NOT going to happen out of the amateur sector, no guy needing a lot of queens or nucs or packages is going to hawk their tail round loads of amateur associations trying to find what they need.

To be done on a scale that is viable its going to need a guaranteed income for the breeder. I cannot see that happening, and without the bee farm to cross pollinate so to speak I can now see it will be hard for such a venture to be stand alone in Scotland.

Bad winter and demand cannot be met, good winter and sales become the issue. Caught both ways.

As for the original conjecture about queens, well its queens on time people want, and in numbers that 'overwintering a few' can never ever meet. The price is a factor but most definitely a secondary one. Early enough to get a crop first season is top issue. My clients are needing in excess of 2000 queens before the second week of May, and at a sensible price (under 20 pounds). Any takers for supplying that from local sourced stock? Its a price that can buy in excellent stock from outside Scotland.

Most do not want overwintered queens anyway. To get significant sales they need to be new seasons which leads to minimal management. Older queens require more intensive working and unless they are proven breeder queens they are expected to be significantly cheaper.

High ideals and fine words often get wrecked on the rocks of reality. To me a twin track is essential unless you actually want to eradicate profession beekeepers.............here will always be years from time to time that local production just cannot sort out from organic local growth, and properly managed and controlled imports are needed. Best having the option and a proper supervisable route. Otherwise the trade goes under the radar.

[drumgerry]

As for the original conjecture about queens, well its queens on time people want, and in numbers that 'overwintering a few' can never ever meet. The price is a factor but most definitely a secondary one. Early enough to get a crop first season is top issue. My clients are needing in excess of 2000 queens before the second week of May, and at a sensible price (under 20 pounds). Any takers for supplying that from local sourced stock? Its a price that can buy in excellent stock from outside Scotland.

Sorry C4U I think we're going to have to part company on this one. What you describe exemplifies to me an unsustainable business model. If they need 2000 queens in the first week of May then of course the only way to do that is to import them. I've said this before and I'll say it again that if that's the only way they can operate to make a profit they should maybe find alternative employment.

[Calluna4u]

Sorry C4U I think we're going to have to part company on this one. What you describe exemplifies to me an unsustainable business model. If they need 2000 queens in the first week of May then of course the only way to do that is to import them. I've said this before and I'll say it again that if that's the only way they can operate to make a profit they should maybe find alternative employment.

Why? The stock is usually excellent and they get a good crop from splits first year. Seems a lot more financially sustainable to me than relying on UK production. either own bred OR bought in. They are just as good, they are cheaper, and they are available at pre agreed times rather than just piecemeal as UK suppliers are at the mercy of so many variables.

As I said before I had a mere 50 on order from a leading UK supplier for early June, and 40 more from a leading Irish supplier. They arrived in lots of 2, 3, 4....the biggest lot was 6...............and they were still trying to complete the orders in September, and actually never did. Despite several attempts, and a lot of fine words, I have NEVER had a UK queen order for more than 10 queens fully supplied in one lot.

Its just a romantic notion that a UK breeding program will be easy to implement. The above type of supply problem is ONLY suitable for amateur beekeepers who have no sensitivity of timing or the need to make a living. We TRY....but many years it will just not work properly.

The idea that these people should be cut off from their supply of perfectly good queens is putting the gun to the back of the neck of at least 20 bee farms (not many in Scotland) or expecting them to operate as effectively subsistence businesses. The margin is hard enough to generate without crucifying them on queen supply.

There seems to be a prevailing mood (not held by all of course) that imported are inferior. Well SOME imported are inferior, but some are also far superior to local stock. Winter better, swarm less, sting a lot less, have less chalk and far less likely to contract EFB, and more honey to boot. Locally adapted? Well there are some lines for sure, but in my experience it is mostly mythical. Plenty other stock is perfectly well adapted to this country despite never having encountered it.

[drumgerry]

Sorry I'm never going to agree that imported is a better option - an easier, cheaper, short term option yes but better? Better for the wallets of a few commercial beekeepers maybe but for the rest of us? Who actually also count in the grand scheme of things. I think Gavin's report estimates that there are 4,000-ish of us amateurs here in Scotland - that's a fair number and a fair number of associated colonies. Not sure it's in our interests to have endless swampings of non-native queens/packages. Which is why we need to put in place systems that suit ALL of us - amateur and commercial. To my mind that's always going to be a solution that is developed in Scotland, for Scotland and not in Italy or Cyprus or Slovenia or New Zealand etc.

The only easy thing to do is to keep importing. The difficult, challenging option is to develop our own production of queens. Gavin's report sets out a number of ideas to achieve that.

It seems to me that the report also suggests that a proportion of commercial operators actually agree with me so in that I have some hope. Interestingly not a single SBA association respondent sees imports as being part of the solution.

[Kate Atchley]

C4u thanks for taking us through the scenarios you've portrayed.

I find, ringing in my ears, the question: why now, why such a hurry? And here I refer to the hobbyist, the amateur beekeepers like me who choose to keep bees for the sheer pleasure and satisfaction it promises.

We've all become habituated to expect instant solutions. In beekeeping this equates with queens to deliver a crop the year we buy them ... queens to replace lingering queens we have not sought to replace ... immediate restocking when colonies are lost through the winter or we mess up on winter feeding or varroa treatment. Yet this is a new phenomenon. Surely no such expectations could be supported for my parents' generation before us?

What if we, the hobbyists, were to slow down, watch out for and accept the vicissitudes of nature with each season? Soon we would see and understand that sometimes we must wait ... for the bees to recover ... the queens to be replaced ... the colonies to be increased. Sometimes we could take care of this ourselves if only we were not in such a hurry. In fact, mostly, we can take care of this ourselves if we slow our expectations down.

Instant gratification and smaller-scale beekeeping are not good bedfellows.

Of course, for the commercial beekeepers, there are more pressing imperatives which I respect. But let's not conflate the two. There is room here for different approaches. There is room here for upskilling folk to provide queens and bees locally and to invite everyone to accept more realistic timescales for their beekeeping.

When I came to Lochaber, then a varroa-free area, we understood that bees would be provided to incomers only as fast as could be arranged. So too for those taking beginners' courses and new to beekeeping. We knew we might have to wait. So be it. It was not and need not be a problem.

[gavin]

It seems to me that the report also suggests that a proportion of commercial operators actually agree with me so in that I have some hope. Interestingly not a single SBA association respondent sees imports as being part of the solution.

And only 6 of the 19 commercial beekeepers responding included imports as something to be encouraged - that surprised me. The appetite for imports is restricted to a few and the preference for local is not restricted to the hobby sector.

The model that Murray described of needing to buy in large numbers of mated queens to make early season splits just isn't happening on any scale in Scotland. Surely it makes more sense to overwinter nucs so that you can fill your empty boxes with vigorous colonies that will be productive almost as quickly as the main colonies. The queens in those overwintered boxes are likely better than current season queens from southern Europe as they have not laid much as yet, are proven to a degree and don't suffer from being out of their colony for a while. Yes, there will be poorer years for overwintering nucs but for people who know what they are doing a good proportion will come through. In the years when you end up with surplus stock and a slack market can you not use them to boost your less productive main colonies?