EFB & cell cleaning questions

[Emma]

Yes ... just reverse all the directions in Snelgroves book ... left = right, top = bottom. What could possibly go wrong? And if you're worrying about the rubbish that falls through I can probably find you a small patch of Varroa impermeable wire to replace the stuff on the board.

Yes please!
I think I'd better re-read my Snelgrove. Then I will stand on my head. Or possibly turn myself inside out.

[Emma]

There might be a significant varroa fall with OMF at times Emma
Mostly though you will hear folk saying that there was next to no natural drop then an avalanche after treatment
That could partly be because most hive inserts are just a bit of correx flapping around in the breeze

The figures for natural drop would probably be right in a situation where the insert was in a sealed insect proof underfloor
Anyway if you looked at the recommended drop figures up on beebase and what the predicted population at that level was
It might show whether OMF could be removing a reasonable percentage

I'm way off topic now because I don't know anything about cell cleaning or EFB

Would you like to see 5 years' worth of obsessive continuous OMF monitoring figures? Happy to share ;-) I haven't learned to predict post-treatment drop from natural mitefall, but I usually have an idea of which ones need treated, and which have the biggest mite populations. I watch the natural drop go down as brood area expands, and up as brood area contracts, and wonder why on Earth people think that one random 7-day period per 6 months is going to tell them what's going on.

I've always wondered what might be eating fallen mites. If anything is, it eats them whole, or carries them off. I've never seen half a mite... tho' come to think of it there may sometimes be empty shells. Aaaargh... yet another detail to look for....!

[The Drone Ranger]

The bee unit advise sticky inserts or Vaseline
As soon as there is a little gap where there is access to the tray scavengers go in
In summer that includes bees wasps beetles you name it
Even in cold weather there are scavenging insects so unless the tray is closed in you won't see the full picture
Scavengers might not go in for dead mites its more likely wax fragments bits of bee etc
Mostly though they take what the can get and clear off
You should post a graph of your drop results Emma that would be good

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[Emma]

I've been amazed how little disturbance there generally is by scavengers. Slugs mess up the patterns. So do mice, of course. Mouse-chewed bees are really easy to spot. And wasps, too. But I can usually keep mice off, and mostly keep wasps off, with wire mesh along the rear gap. Slugs: well, my hives really ought to be dry enough to keep them away; I'm working on it. Not sure what the little, looong insects feed on. Would love to know what they are: they're tough, they reappear early in the year.
Haven't done a graph yet. Enjoyed yours the other week: graphs are good :-) But I've got too much detailed data, & not enough time to process it. I'd understand more if I had more time to read back through my notes: my ambition is to get down to 4 colonies, so I have more time for each one.
Here's a thing you may not have come across about OMFs and varroa inserts: people quote a study by Jeff Pettis from 1999. If there aren't 2 inches between the mesh and the insert, then the varroa can climb back up onto the bees. If it's only half an inch, every live mite that drops can get back up, so the OMF won't be any use for reducing varroa population.
None of the hive makers/sellers seem to have come across this research. I modify all my floors, to make the drop longer.
I've found two quotes of it - this one's nicely written: http://chrissladesbeeblog.wordpress....the-long-drop/
And I'm pretty sure the original paper is this one: Pettis, J. S. and Shimanuki, H. A hive modification to reduce Varroa populations. American Bee J. 139: 471-473. 1999.
There's an abstract online, but it doesn't mention the details of how the floor is constructed: http://www.ars.usda.gov/research/pub...Q_NO_115=99053
Frustrating!!

[The Drone Ranger]

Thanks Emma
I'm sure you are right I will study the linked articles

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[nemphlar]

I,m a little reluctant to offer opinions on snelgrove use after only 1 year but DR's experiences go some way to confirming my first year results and that is you would need to be very unlucky to loose a swarm in 3 or4 weeks after an early split with super for old queen in the bottom box, ie early May. I had mentioned to DR about the 3 to 6 week brood break and it's possible affect on varroa, and without making big issue of it a fine mesh on the board does appear effectively create this break and reduce their expansion at this important time.
As the brood will be hatching at different rates its seems to me that it's more important to be aware of the numbers in the top box for maintaining heat and health and changing doors to suite rather than trying stick rigidly to the book, I would stick to having the VQ on top
All my floors are mesh with boards attached to bottom of the hive stool about 75mm below the floor, didn't seem to cause any issues last year. Though not convinced they are a significant tool against varroa, mainly cleared up the damp problem

[Emma]

Those are good points about warmth, and monitoring bee numbers above. But it sounds as if some of my bees have been slower to come into lay, and keener to swarm, than yours.
Do you check bee numbers by raising the crownboard for a look, or do you have transparent crown boards? The year I had most queen-mating failures was also the year when I looked inside nests when there were virgins waiting to mate, so I'm reluctant to do that again.

[nemphlar]

Haha you may have a good point about peaking in too often, I had plenty of mated queens and bees and I had some success locally with the top box VQ mating, but not much with the ones in the valley where I blamed the swifts and swallows which seemed thicker than normal.
I had lots of spare cells to drop into mating nucs, which to be honest still didn't return more than 30%, I have 7 transparent boards I could try this year, although I'm not sure checking once a week should have put the VQ off. It goes without saying that I would only check early morning or late afternoon

[The Drone Ranger]

You can look in a day or so after the board goes on to check for starts
And again say 5 days later when the cells are sealed
After that you might wait another 20 days till hatch, mate, and lay before having a peek for eggs
I'm no expert on anything, so fire away, a new take on using boards helps everyone me included

[nemphlar]

DR I understand that the advice is to leave the top box to sort themselves out, but my experience is if I leave a couple of cells in brood box they are quite likely to send out little casts with each VQ so I generally remove all but one.