EFSA report on risks of spread of small hive beetle

[prakel]

As always, some interesting points raised by Calluna4u.

With regard to final consignment being +/- the expected (stated) number, do you think that the people that you've heard of who fail to report their imports would look differently at the paperwork if there was facility to make the pre-arrival declaration but then to have an 'ammendments' window of a couple of days to clear up any discrepencies. Probably too simple a solution where government paperwork is concerned, of course.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi C4u
I hear what you say about the size of Italy and agree that Dover is quite far away from me
We all find ourselves coming up with reasons to carry on doing things we just want do anyway for our own personal or financial reasons (justifications)

I expect small hive beetle will get here sooner or later
I am not an expert on bee movements throughout Europe And UK

What I can say is that when it arrives it won't have been brought here by me

Apologies if that seems rude

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

[prakel]

I hear what you say about the size of Italy and agree that Dover is quite far away from me

I'm just glad that he chose to use Dover as an example, rather than some other south coast port......

[Greengage]

An interesting topic for discussion, It is said that it pupates in Light sandy soils and warm conditions are required for pupation and completion of the life cycle. Therefore heavy clay/wet soils may not suit and maybe only Aperies on light soils in milder parts will be more affected than those on heavy clay in colder areas or Acid soils of upland blankket bogs or lowland raised bogs. Thankfully it has not arrived yet but we still dont know for sure if it will survive here or if iit will have some natural predators like starlings or rooks when it is in its pupation stage or if we get a very hard winter like we did a few years ago. If it did arrive and If every beekeeper placed a trap outside their hive to trap larvae on leaving would it not be easier to control, In Ireland we have some sentenial hives near Ports and airports so they should give an indication if it arrives. Do they have similar procedures in palce in Engalnd/ Scotland and Wales or Northern ireland.

[Calluna4u]

I expect small hive beetle will get here sooner or later
I am not an expert on bee movements throughout Europe And UK

What I can say is that when it arrives it won't have been brought here by me

Apologies if that seems rude

Sent from my LIFETAB_S1034X using Tapatalk

Not rude at all. You play the ball. That's fine. My opinion on the threat posed by SHB is a matter of previous record. I do not fear it at all, ditto for Tropilaelaps in its turn.

I think you have more to fear from proximity of local EFB and AFB cases than you will ever have to fear from SHB, which has only proven to e a problem in the sub tropical USA.

Do we want SHB? Of course not! However as an example of the issue of cutting off the supply of bees you have to consider the impact on other sectors of a total ban. The single farm in Hereford had big issues getting bees, and the shortage threatened their productivity of UK table apples by a six figure sum. Local bees just not available. In the Herefordshire area alone this threat from lack of pollinators amounted to seven figures........so then add in Evesham, Cambridgeshire and most especially Kent. Do you just want to tell them they cannot get bees? We are not a single issue world, and all actions have consequences. When the consequences are worse than the problem then you have to consider what is worst.

As I am sure some will tell you, I started the bringing in the bees as a common good project. Several businesses would not be here today without it. Several families would have lost their homes, in widely spread parts of the UK. A lot of fruit pollination would have gone undone........to values dwarfing any damage SHB will ever do. We are not a metaphorical island, no matter how much some would like it to be. Most places with SHB just see it as a thing they see and do not take any action about it as it is not seen as a threat (try Australia with it far more SHB favourable climate than here). I do understand our authorities stance on it however, and can imagine the long knives that would be out for them if they said it was not a big issue, so they HAVE to be SEEN to take it as a serious threat (many reasons for that, most of them not exactly what meets the eye.).

As for financial gain? Well they are actually good bees so can get a good honey crop from them with minimal fuss, but as for directly benefitting me financially? Well its marginal. I don't do it to get rich from bee sales. You will already be very well aware that I work on twin track approach and are doing our best to have locally raised (but not Amm, just good bees) nucs and queens available in good amounts, so we have a foot in both camps. Some times the local stuff will suffice, other times not. Forget fruit pollination, forget environmental well being, both of which flow from there being abundant pollinators.....just from honey alone, once you go to retail level an average honey crop from our unit will be generating a million pounds a year in economic activity. Bee shortages have a cost way beyond the value of the bees themselves. Also about 90% of what I bring in goes to SE England.

But back to SHB..........given the fact that over 80% of South African trade (outside southern Africa) in commodities that are possible vectors over the last 150 years was with the UK.... what do you think the odds are that it has never been here? Pretty slim I would say. So where is it?

Meanwhile we will work away responsibly with stock that is over 1000Km from the nearest SHB, inspected twice a year, and then even the individual packages are inspected prior to dispatch, and then they are seen by the bee inspectors here before hiving too.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi C4u
It's always puzzled me how it is possible for a commercial operation to be short of bees
Goodness knows most people have the opposite problem too many bees and not enough equipment to put them in
Overwintering bees is so simple why would there be a shortfall

It might also be worth mentioning that there are plenty other pollinators other than honey bees
Laying claim to all pollination might be a good sales tactic for the bee farmers association but not one that convinces me
I thought the New Zealand queens you were keen on gave all the advantages of early hive expansion and none of the risks of packages

Anyway I don't want to upset anyone and I can tell it won't influence you or others plans
The difficulty I find myself in, is that while I am not a natural supporter of calls to ban bee imports, given a vote I would be forced to vote in favour of a ban, because it seems common sense won't prevail

Apologies once again and I will leave the subject at that

[Calluna4u]

Hi C4u
It's always puzzled me how it is possible for a commercial operation to be short of bees

Its very easy. First thing is the demands of the season, and the heather working is hard on the bees, yet this is not a Scotland only phenomenon. It happens all over the UK, and indeed is no more prevalent in professionals than in amateurs. Amateurs can happily forego any kind of crop to make natural increase after splitting. we do that after a bad winter and we can lose the house. Its also not an every year issue. Most years we have enough bees to comfortably recover from the losses, but there are bad wintering years, that's generally not down to the beekeeper but to the summer before. Three years ago was very bad, and a 60% loss rate across north and west Britain, amateur and professional alike, was almost normal. Your business is gone if you force them to recover from that organically, in what is already a marginal at best business. Honey prices are currently about 60% of where they should be if you index link them back 30 or 40 years.

Goodness knows most people have the opposite problem too many bees and not enough equipment to put them in

Some years. Point is its unreliable. If you never have any issues with losses or understrength hives you are a very special case. Not many are like that.

Overwintering bees is so simple why would there be a shortfall.

Same point again. Yes it IS simple, but you can only work with what you have in autumn. I know of people who claim no losses yet do uniting in the autumn. Sorry but -1 is -1...does not matter whether it was united or died....its still one loss.

It might also be worth mentioning that there are plenty other pollinators other than honey bees

What for? Remember we are dealing with short period major flourishes. Native pollinators do not have time to adapt to that, then the forage crashes. Bought in bumbles are an alternative, but the local native pollinators cannot deal with agricultural quantities of flower. If they can then the population crashes again after the flowering is overt as there is nothing to get. Specific species that are only focussed on a short window are a possibility, but how many years and millions of pounds lost to farmers waiting for those to build up? What happens to them if there is a gap year in the crop rotation or a season when they cannot get at the crop due to weather. That the wild pollinators can cope with farm quantities of short flowering period crops is a bit of a romantic dream. For hedgerows and wild flourish yes it is an attainable (if quite expensive) goal. Even long flowering period low density flowerings like clover give the natives a chance.

Laying claim to all pollination might be a good sales tactic for the bee farmers association but not one that convinces me

Not by me. I don't get pollination fees, and in fact very few do. The BFA places under 2000 colonies per year under its pollination scheme, as even at a price that only covers cost and a bit more you find others willing to undercut and amateurs wanting to do it for nothing just to get the places. My deal for pollination is not actually for a fee, but I do get other benefits I prefer not to go into here. Have never heard anyone from any camp lay claim to all pollination.

I thought the New Zealand queens you were keen on gave all the advantages of early hive expansion and none of the risks of packages

They have a lot of advantages, but like all other stock, nothing is perfect. I have used very little NZ stock myself for a few years now, but a couple of our breeder lines are founded on that stock. The NZ queens were great, but they were production queens, not breeder queens, and taken from relatively few breeder mothers, so to use them all the time, without outcrossing, gives rise to serious inbreeding risks. Very productive and a joy to work with however, and ever so frugal in winter.

Anyway I don't want to upset anyone and I can tell it won't influence you or others plans
The difficulty I find myself in, is that while I am not a natural supporter of calls to ban bee imports, given a vote I would be forced to vote in favour of a ban, because it seems common sense won't prevail

Its only common sense if you view it solely from the one aspect, that of the bee lover to the exclusion of all the other impinging interests. I understand very well that is what I am going to meet here and not offended in the least by people expressing that. Just repeating again....national policy in the round will always be dictated by what is seen as the national good....we are a very minor cog in that and the farmers needing bees will always trump the beekeepers, of whatever scale. In the real world what has to be done is to meet the needs as safely as possible, but meet them you have to, and on an immediate needs basis.....the flowers are not going to hold back and wait for the beekeepers to get their act in order. UK pollinators, native or managed, just cannot respond and provide what huge short term flourishes need. Migratory operators are required to make up what the native and managed resident populations cannot cope with.

Apologies once again and I will leave the subject at that

No apology needed. You express your viewpoint, with no playing of the man.

....

[mbc]

There's a serious mismatch between this apparent urgent need for pollinators and the bfa only placing 2000 colonies. Surely they'd be asked to place far more if there was the need for more colonies.

[Calluna4u]

There's a serious mismatch between this apparent urgent need for pollinators and the bfa only placing 2000 colonies. Surely they'd be asked to place far more if there was the need for more colonies.

Not really. The number willing to undertake commercial pollination is quite small, and there is a poor track record of bee farmers sticking with the scheme. They tend to run off and do the deal privately after a season or two. The small number is only those placed through the official BFA pollination scheme. It will be dwarfed by the number working direct with the grower. One guy alone left the BFA once he had been given enough pollination contracts......saved the subscription and the small admin charge. Very poor example of solidarity IMO, and I told him I thought that. He was a big player in pollination. Most bees offered to the scheme are placed, and those not placed are usually due to some requirement of the grower or the beekeeper that means a match cannot be made. The biggest demand is in Kent, and not many are willing to haul their tail from far flung parts of the country, and then be ready to move out again on only a few hours notice.
The needs of pollination are quite tough and the growers like to work with a small number of beekeepers and preferably only one per farm. Administering the movement and scheduling of moves and spraying work is very tough, and then trying to work with multiple beekeepers is like herding cats. One farm I was speaking to had been unable for many years to get larger beekeepers in and stated that they had (in Kent) 60 or 70 amateur beekeepers to liase with and it was a full time job for a man just trying to get these people coordinated, and it was utterly stressful fielding all the complaints from the beekeepers about everything from bee shifting spraying needs, even the mowing of the orchard understory.

There really is a need for migratory pollination, but the UK culture is such that paying a fair rate for it is not well established, especially when there are those out there, mainly amateurs who do not do their sums, who are happy to put their bees in just in return for a place to keep them. Then they cause all sorts of grief to the grower when they bring in extra bees they need from elsewhere. They almost invariably complain that they believe the incoming bees to be diseased and just don't let up. Makes relationships difficult.

There is always someone wanting to place a few hives, for nothing, and then grumbling when the farmer brings in more bees, as quite correctly he knows that the guys 6 hives aint going to pollinate 100 acres of apples properly.

[mbc]

I can see the frustration with people cutting their own deal but if the subscription and admin charge are really that small then work needs to be done on the perceived benefits of going through the bfa.
I did look into it myself and it seemed brilliant to have a guaranteed payment, but I'm not prepared to ship my bees any great distance. I do pollinate a few smallish apple orchards locally but it only involves a couple of dozen colonies and the orchardists are always prepared to pay up. (I charge £40/colony, is this about right?)
Again, to my mind, there is a mismatch between the implied importance of pollination to the farmer and their acceptance of using amateurs to save a few bob.