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Thread: Apiary Vicinity mating again

  1. #31
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    And I don't think this happens every time as I have seen queens returning solo showing the mating sign. I think some fly to congregation areas as described in the literature but others mate over the apiary. Could be 10% or 50%. I have no real idea on that.

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    Senior Member busybeephilip's Avatar
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    Put a queen excluder on the apidea with a newly hatched Virgin queen. then take it off when you have a video camera ready, hope for a swarm, then observe, wait for queen to return, put excluder back on

    sacrifice the queen a day after she returns to the apidea to see if she is still a virgin or a mated queen ?
    Last edited by busybeephilip; 14-08-2015 at 12:26 PM.

  3. #33
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busybeephilip View Post
    There is definitely some sort of swarming behavior going on - no doubt on that. I have observed this same thing in my own Amm bess but also to some extent in other races with bees in mating nucs.

    whether it can be described as mating is a bit up in the air (pun) as no comet is observed and no mating sign seen on the queens return or in the wee cluster of bees (as far as i am aware from Jons comments).

    Have never seen them returning to an apidea before but i can think of reasons for that scenario to happen in relation to absconding

    The fact that the queen begins to lay a few days later is irrelevant and does not prove that this swarming is a mating event, she could mate day before, before on the same day, after on the same day or the day after the swarming event


    As Prakel says .. if this was demonstrated as a true mating event it would re-write the books but given that Amm mating aparies exist in europe where a lot of research is done in bee institutes now for many years and this has not been scientifically documented I still remain un-converted.
    I'm all for rewriting the books if warranted.

    It isn't swarming. Swarms never come back (unless the queen is lost) and bees will not swarm unless they have been preparing to swarm. They either 'know' that they are leaving behind queen cells at a relative early stage, or they've had the evidence of a queen quacking in a cell to prove it. If they are not leaving behind a viable queen cell and are planning coming back it is nothing like swarming.

    It isn't absconding. They never come back either.

    It is coincident with mating as virgins lay a couple of days later. Workers hussle the queen out.

    OK, I do agree that video of a queen returning quickly with the mating sign would be the ultimate proof, but until then the circumstantial evidence is strong.

    If Jon can get proof of that then the delightful irony is that Jon will have proved Beo Cooper right all along

  4. #34
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busybeephilip View Post
    Put a queen excluder on the apidea with a newly hatched Virgin queen. then take it off when you have a video camera ready, hope for a swarm, then observe, wait for queen to return, put excluder back on

    sacrifice the queen a day after she returns to the apidea to see if she is still a virgin or a mated queen ?
    Nice ideas. Or just leave the mated virgin behind the excluder to lay fertile eggs. But you might need to monitor queen movements during orientation flights too as she might not fly to mate the first time.
    Last edited by gavin; 14-08-2015 at 12:38 PM.

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    Senior Member busybeephilip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    I'm all for rewriting the books if warranted.

    It is coincident with mating as virgins lay a couple of days later. Workers hussle the queen out.

    p
    It may well be.. but still does not prove that mating takes place within this "swarm"

  6. #36
    Senior Member busybeephilip's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    Nice ideas. Or just leave the mated virgin behind the excluder to lay fertile eggs. But you might need to monitor queen movements during orientation flights too as she might not fly to mate the first time.

    The experiment should work apart from a real mating flight taking place first of all prior to the "swarm" ahh...but then the mating sign would be visable on her return so the experiment would conclude at that stage

    And if she did go on a "swarm" it may add weight to this not being a mating event but some sort of swarming behaviour
    Last edited by busybeephilip; 14-08-2015 at 12:49 PM. Reason: thinking more on this!

  7. #37
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    I have seen dozens, probably hundreds, of queens return to apideas and I have only seen a queen showing the mating sign twice. I saw one enter an apidea and by the time I had the top off to get a pic they had it cleaned it off her and that was less than 5 minutes from I saw it.

    Where you are almost guaranteed to see this behaviour is the first sunny afternoon after a couple of weeks of poor weather.
    Beo Cooper argued that AVM was a strategy for mating locally in poor weather but that is definitely not what I see.
    This happens when it is sunny, calm and usually 18c or more.
    Most of my sites have 50 of so Apideas so if the conditions are right several should take a mating flight on a good afternoon.

    Phil, if you witnessed this you would see that there is definitely something very coordinated going on on the part of the bees.

    I must go and check that one I mentioned in the OP as she should be laying this evening or tomorrow.

    I can see how there is a doubt as to whether she actually mates within this swarm from the apidea but I do not think there is much doubt that this behaviour has some role in the mating process, possibly the central one.

    Leaving aside any interpretation re mating, why would bees and a queen leave the security of a hive/apidea, fly round in a tight circle for 10-15 minutes, cluster in a ball for an hour then return. It's hardly for their own entertainment so it must have a purpose.

  8. #38
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    No eggs yet but polished cells and the queen looks mated to me. She has the movement of a mated queen.
    Some of the workers are starting to form a court around her.

    Took this 10 minutes ago.



    The workers are from the previous incumbent of the apidea.
    Last edited by Jon; 14-08-2015 at 06:36 PM.

  9. #39
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    Nice ideas. Or just leave the mated virgin behind the excluder to lay fertile eggs. But you might need to monitor queen movements during orientation flights too as she might not fly to mate the first time.
    The queen takes loads of short orientation flights before taking a mating flight.
    The orientation flights can take place early or late in the day but the mating flights are always between 1.30pm and 6pm.

    This is an orientation flight. You can see her leave running up the side of the apidea and returning a short while later and going back in.

  10. #40

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    Hi Jon
    There is some strange behavior with mating nucs
    I believe it could be low level mating as you say
    I think on a normal queen orientation flight from a hive there is almost always a big fuss and bees flying out with her then coming back
    Some queens appear to be pretty hopeless flyers at the best of times so you can collect swarms with virgins practically on the ground

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