encore demaree

[greengumbo]

Hive that I artificially swarmed by doing a vertical demaree is at it again. Originally I moved brood up top and queen +new foundation below with QE and super in between.

Three weeks later the upper brood box is now being backfilled with honey and the lower brood box with queen is full of drawn comb, BIAS, a few nearly sealed queen cells and a very slimmed down queen.

Prior to the almighty storm last night was when I was inspecting so I hastily did a second A/S with what I had to hand but instead of foundation I just moved the brood frames up top and put the backfilled frames with queen down below.

The queen is clipped and marked. Will a second A/S work or should I just split the hive ? Thoughts ?

[Feckless Drone]

The queen is clipped and marked. Will a second A/S work or should I just split the hive ? Thoughts ?

I find this happens most of the time, the old Q has another go even after putting an excluder on the floor to keep her in until she has started laying again. I wonder if this has to do with the timing and presence of some flow (OSR). At first when I saw this I just tried removing the cells but then they would just raise more or I missed one and lose my clipped Q. What I've started to do is remove the old Q in a small nucleus colony and feed small doses of syrup then let the old colony raise a Q. At this time, then there are no young bees or very few, and the flying bees still bring in some honey. After I harvest, and into end of june should be left with two new Qs one on top the other with the old Q as insurance. Then I'll decide what to do depending on how the new Q's look/perform. Its not the most efficient way but if the stock is swarmy or conditions encourage it then it seems one approach. Without doubt, the best honey yields in my case have come when the old Q does not have another go at swarming but just gets laying again. Such a lovely Q, that I judged was less swarmy, was selected to raise the mother of three Q's, however, all of whom subsequently have been going to swarm after AS.

[fatshark]

I've had about 50:50 success this year using the Demaree and suspect it's because I might have started a bit late on a couple of occasions. If I remember correctly - which, increasingly, I don't - the method was originally designed to be applied before the colony starts to make (obvious) swarm preparations. Some appear to have settled down after a second round of knocking cells back. I've never put excluders under the bottom box or resorted to taking the Q out in a nuc … if they're that determined to go I've usually resorted to splitting the colony up for nucs and queen rearing. In one box that continued to draw cells in the bottom chamber the original Q has now disappeared … presumably not swarmed as she was clipped, so they may have just done 'er in. I've left the blighters with a good sealed cell and will look again later this month. In contrast, other colonies have behaved impeccably.

So, that's not much help to you at all. Other than confirming similar experiences. Apologies.

[greengumbo]

Yup I was too late I think in starting. In my, shaky, defence this colony was ahead of the other ones in expanding to full lang brood by a good three / four weeks. Think I should be grafting from this genetic line !

Went along this morning and blocked the entrance to the bottom brood box and added a new entrance to the upper and supers. Using that modern beekeeping anti swarm queen excluder. Hopefully the queen will settle down and fatten up again soon. In the meantime I have popped a frame of cupkit cells in the upper box ready for grafting in a few days. Will cram more bees in by putting in a large blank and removing some brood to another hive. Also did an A/S on another hive this morning which is bursting at the seams. Unfortunately my lovely Maud/Tayside Gav grafted queen is producing loads of chalkbrood and not really expanding much so may be for the chop this year or at least retired to a nuc.

[fatshark]

In the meantime I have popped a frame of cupkit cells in the upper box ready for grafting in a few days.

I stopped doing this … I just graft into the frame and drop it into the colony (gently). I've not noticed any difference in acceptance rates between those lovingly bathed in 1:1 syrup and allowed to reach temperature for 24 hours etc etc., and those when I just grab the cell bar frame from wherever I last put it for safe keeping and get grafting.

Trying a Cloake board at the moment for the first time - checking grafts this evening. Always exciting trying something new … and there's the added tension that the bottom box was thinking of going AWOL.

That's not the sort of advertising the 'Tayside Gav' needs Might be worth boosting the bee numbers if she's worth rescuing. Chalkbrood can disappear with busy colonies.

[greengumbo]

I stopped doing this … I just graft into the frame and drop it into the colony (gently). I've not noticed any difference in acceptance rates between those lovingly bathed in 1:1 syrup and allowed to reach temperature for 24 hours etc etc., and those when I just grab the cell bar frame from wherever I last put it for safe keeping and get grafting.

Trying a Cloake board at the moment for the first time - checking grafts this evening. Always exciting trying something new … and there's the added tension that the bottom box was thinking of going AWOL.

That's not the sort of advertising the 'Tayside Gav' needs Might be worth boosting the bee numbers if she's worth rescuing. Chalkbrood can disappear with busy colonies.

Oh god I hope I haven't dented his PR. Just to be clear the queen in question came from a graft taken from my own stocks and then mated down in Tayside, and not in the shiny new AMM mating apiary !!! Feel free to delete the offending quote Gav if it sounds like I'm slating you !!!

Bee numbers pretty good in that hive...they fill a poly lang but no sign of swarm cells or eggs in QCups yet and plenty chalk. Maybe a shook swarm needed and thymolated syrup feed - too late ?

[Jon]

I stopped doing this … I just graft into the frame and drop it into the colony (gently). I've not noticed any difference in acceptance rates between those lovingly bathed in 1:1 syrup and allowed to reach temperature for 24 hours etc etc., and those when I just grab the cell bar frame from wherever I last put it for safe keeping and get grafting.

Same here fatshark. Almost all of the stuff you are told is essential with regard to grafting is unnecessary.
I just graft dry into cups and drop in the frame into the cell starter.
Other stuff you can safely ignore is the advice not to shake the bees off the frame you are taking grafts from. Just shake off the bees and graft. It does not damage the larvae. Some faff around with a bee brush.
The one that is really unnecessary is the advice to leave the apidea for 3 days in the dark before opening.
If I add the virgin and bees at the same time I open it the following day.
If I add the bees and then introduce a queen cell I open it as soon as the virgin has emerged from the cell.
Yet more silly advice is the advice to introduce a cell in a cell protector or wrapped in tinfoil. Totally undecessary and only making extra work for yourself.
Those who say a marked virgin will be more visible to a bird and get eaten - again you can ignore that.

[greengumbo]

Same here fatshark. Almost all of the stuff you are told is essential with regard to grafting is unnecessary.
I just graft dry into cups and drop in the frame into the cell starter.
Other stuff you can safely ignore is the advice not to shake the bees off the frame you are taking grafts from. Just shake off the bees and graft. It does not damage the larvae. Some faff around with a bee brush.
The one that is really unnecessary is the advice to leave the apidea for 3 days in the dark before opening.
If I add the virgin and bees at the same time I open it the following day.
If I add the bees and then introduce a queen cell I open it as soon as the virgin has emerged from the cell.
Yet more silly advice is the advice to introduce a cell in a cell protector or wrapped in tinfoil. Totally undecessary and only making extra work for yourself.
Those who say a marked virgin will be more visible to a bird and get eaten - again you can ignore that.

This is all good advice. Cheers Jon !

[mbc]

Same here fatshark. Almost all of the stuff you are told is essential with regard to grafting is unnecessary.
I just graft dry into cups and drop in the frame into the cell starter.
Other stuff you can safely ignore is the advice not to shake the bees off the frame you are taking grafts from. Just shake off the bees and graft. It does not damage the larvae. Some faff around with a bee brush.
The one that is really unnecessary is the advice to leave the apidea for 3 days in the dark before opening.
If I add the virgin and bees at the same time I open it the following day.
If I add the bees and then introduce a queen cell I open it as soon as the virgin has emerged from the cell.
Yet more silly advice is the advice to introduce a cell in a cell protector or wrapped in tinfoil. Totally undecessary and only making extra work for yourself.
Those who say a marked virgin will be more visible to a bird and get eaten - again you can ignore that.

I protect my cells with a wrap of insulation tape, it helps imho( especially essential for superseded requeening) takes a second.
I also get more success preconditioning the cell cups to be grafted into, I like to pop the grafting frame and the frame of larvae to be grafted into the cell builder in the morning at the same time as making them queenless. By the afternoon when I'm ready to graft the bees have already obviously chosen some larvae as they're swimming in more jelly than the others, and any mess left in the cell cups(yes, I'm that tight I reuse them!) is cleaned up and makes the cups easier to graft into and gives a better acceptance imho.
Horses for courses as with all beekeeping, we evolve systems which work for us.

Edit, neither would I mark virgins, but then I don't use an incubator and find cells are better accepted than virgins.

[Adam]

I've done a few demarees with 4 on the go now. Success seems (to me) to depend on the flavour of bee. One 'strain' I have - originally a carniolan caught swarm - will generally swarm after a demaree is carried out, others don't - even if it's left too late and there are sealed queencells in the hive and still the queen; once 12 frames of brood are pushed upstairs, then the queen starts to lay again down below. In past years, the colony might still build up and then decide to swarm even after a double demaree (process repeated a few weeks later). A demaree is no guarantee of a never-swarm-hive - this year the 4 I have done are currently OK; time will tell whether they behave as I want them to.

Note that I've not got it in for carni's - I haven't done enough demarees with them for a statistically significant answer!