They still aren't reading the ruddy book.

[prakel]

Rutter did proper controlled experimental work

As I've said before, it would be nice to see the full write-up which a scientist of his standing would surely have produced after investing time and material resources in search of an answer.

[Jon]

Indeed, but I do rate Ruttner as a serious bee researcher as opposed to the zealots like Brother Adam or Beo Cooper.
There is a lot of stuff not accessible online.

[prakel]

Indeed, but I do rate Ruttner as a serious bee researcher as opposed to the zealots like Brother Adam or Beo Cooper.
There is a lot of stuff not accessible online.

I also think Ruttner was an important researcher who still needs to be listened to, the Apimondia queen rearing book which he edited is in my opinion the best on the subject. But that's not to disparage the undoubted experience of Br Adam. As for Cooper, we have a few articles and a posthumous book compiled from 'notes' so, in my opinion, not a fair body of finished work to judge him on.

I'll hazard a guess (if anyone here gets the chance to attend the National this year) that the Koeniger's may well be able to offer further information on this research, subject to a polite request.

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi Castor.
I think for the the most part they are all pretty good with the odd rogue popping up now and then.
It might be easier to refer to them as Amm+
(that's amm plus a bit of everything else)
A marketing ploy really the same as rebranding an apple "pink lady" to fox people into thinking its something new and getting trademark protection

[The Drone Ranger]

"Indeed, but I do rate Ruttner as a serious bee researcher as opposed to the zealots like Brother Adam or Beo Cooper."

Hi Jon
Brother Adam did say that some first crosses had undesirable temperaments which disappeared in subsequent crosses l'm sure
I must re-read those books

[Jon]

By zealot I was thinking more of things such as his claim that Amm was wiped out by Isle of wight disease. A man with a clear agenda.

[The Drone Ranger]

By zealot I was thinking more of things such as his claim that Amm was wiped out by Isle of wight disease. A man with a clear agenda.

Hiya Jon
What happened there I think is he got into a public disagreement with Les Bailey among others about acarine and its effect on the British bee population
In fairness there was a real sense at one time that nothing could stop acarine wiping out the British bee

I suspect he was like many others of the time

Reading his books he comes accross as a bit stubborn but in fairness he was trying to achieve something in bee breeding which was to create a superbee which didn't depend on hybrid vigour and` he made great strides

He always seems to point out that there are strains of every breed that are very good and others that are very poor

He was reasonably breed agnostic in that sense I think

[prakel]

I suspect he was like many others of the time

Reading his books he comes accross as a bit stubborn but in fairness he was trying to achieve something in bee breeding which was to create a superbee which didn't depend on hybrid vigour and` he made great strides

He always seems to point out that there are strains of every breed that are very good and others that are very poor

He was reasonably breed agnostic in that sense I think

This is important, I think. Sure he set himself in a corner to some extent with regards to English amm having been wiped out (as an aside: did he ever claim that all British amm had been lost? I'm not sure, although he obviously didn't make much effort to track any down either way). But there can be no doubting the depth of his research. His work was of a sufficiently high standard to gain him the respect of some very clever bee scientists, his friend Ruttner amongst them.