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Thread: GM again! GM multi definition of bad science.

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    Default GM again! GM multi definition of bad science.

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    > http://www.e360.yale.edu/content/feature.msp?id=2273
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    > In February 2009, frustrated by industry restrictions on independent research into genetically modified crops, two dozen scientists representing public research institutions in 17 corn-producing states told the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) that the companies producing genetically modifiinhibit public scientists from pursuing their mandated role on behalf of the public good" and warned that industry influence had made independent analyses of transgenic crops impossible.
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    > Unprepared for the scientists' public protest and the press accounts that followed it, the industry, through its American Seed Trade Association (ASTA), met with crop scientists. Late last year, ASTA agreed that, while still restricting research on engineered plant genes, it would allow researchers greater freedom to study the effects of GM food crops on soil, pests, and pesticide use, and to compare their yields and analyze their effects on the environment.
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    > Since the first GM crops were planted some 15 years ago, the companies that developed them have claimed broad control over their use. Farmers don't simply buy a bag of GM seed from Monsanto, Syngenta, or DuPont.
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    > Instead, they enter into a "Technology/Stewardship Agreement" with the company that developed it, the fine print of which lays out, among other things, the terms under which the seed can be used, where it can be grown, where it can be sold (many international governments do not allow the sale of GM crops or products made with them), and the brand of herbicides that can be used. This "bag-tag," as it's known, also specifically restricts any use of the seed for research.
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    > > "We used to be able to go into any farm store and buy seeds, test them in the field, and publish our results," said one researcher. With the advent of GM crops, however, even scientists working in public land grant institutions, whose extension services have long provided farmers with independent analyses, found their research ultimately subject to seed company approval.
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    > If a scientist wanted to compare brands of seeds, for instance, or their environmental impact, he or she had to seek permission from each seed company or gene patent holder. Open access to the study’s data and the right to publish that data had to be secured, while, for their part, the companies sought to protect their patents and intellectual property rights. Even if the companies did not object, contract negotiations, made on a case-by-case basis, could be extended and onerous. Making things worse was that with fewer public monies available for farm research, scientists, and their universities, found themselves increasingly dependent on the seed companies for funding.
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    > The companies were not loath to press their advantage.
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    > "I have talked to dozens of scientists who have gone through incredible machinations to do their research," says Charles Benbrook, the chief executive director of the National Academy of Sciences Board on Agriculture. And when their data presents a challenge to the companies, he says, these scientists "have found themselves under personal and professional threats." Among research that has faced industry disapproval, says Benbrook, are studies on evolving weed resistance, on plant pathogens, and on susceptibility of non-pest insects to the Bacillus thuringiensis (Bt)-derived toxins that protect the GM plants against insect pests.
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    > "Scientists are clearly intimidated," says Doug Gurian-Sherman, senior scientist for the Union of Concerned Scientists' Food and Environment Program.
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    > In a paper co-authored (non anonymously) by nine of the 24 researchers and published last month in GM Crops, the scientists elaborated upon their grievances. Research restrictions, they wrote, preclude public scientists "from meeting their obligations to the American crop producer and ultimately the consumer." The system, as it now stands, "sets up an uneven relationship where industry partners may unduly influence the way research is designed and disseminated." Even once an agreement has been successfully negotiated, they wrote, there's no guarantee the company won't withdraw its participation if the results appear to be unfavorable to its product.
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    > Their statement, they wrote, was "meant as a warning that the assumption of independence is not longer valid under current company-imposed restrictions on public sector research."
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    > "We were just looking to pursue the questions that need to be answered," says Elson Shields of Cornell University's Department of Entomology, one of the formerly anonymous twenty-four.
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    > For 10 years, Shields says, he and his fellow scientists worked around the companies' restrictions. But they felt that too many scientific issues were not being addressed. In particular, scientists could not be certain that multi-year studies would be renewed or that they'd be allowed to follow up on unexpected findings "which reflects the very essence of scientific inquiry." Such uncertainties, says Shields, meant that many experiments were never initiated.
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    > When they submitted their letter to the companies, Shields says, "We didn't plan or anticipate the strength of the response." The industry, too, seemed to be caught unprepared.
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    > "I think each company was hearing a little bit from relationships they had from individual universities and researchers," says Andrew LaVigne, president and CEO of the American Seed Trade Association (ASTA), the industry's trade organization. "But we were a little surprised."
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    > At a meeting in December 2009, the companies said that while they would not agree to remove the bag-tag restrictions on research "for reasons of
    > competitiveness in the marketplace," they would agree to enter into blanket research agreements called Academic Research Licenses (ARLs) with public institutions. These ARLs would make it unnecessary for scientists to apply to do research on a case-by-case basis. The language in these agreements - approved by the companies, ASTA, and the Biotechnology Industry Organization — would supersede that of the bag-tag.
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    > In a statement on the scientists' concerns, Monsanto said that it had for years had ARLs in place with universities and that although it believed the company's relationships with researchers had been "overwhelmingly positive," it realized "we can do more to communicate... the freedom they have to conduct wide-ranging research" on their GM crops. Monsanto said its intention was to "assure that the public sector research community is free to design robust, scientifically sound experimental protocols... derive independent conclusions," and "is free to publish findings... with reasonable notice to companies."
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    > What is not included in the agreement with ASTA and the companies, are studies related to the patent-protected genetics of the plant itself, such as breeding, reverse gene engineering, and modifications to the genetic traits.
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    > Universities must still negotiate terms of the ARLs with each company. Each company remains free to decide how fully it will adopt the principles. A single "non-player," the scientists wrote last month, could still prevent comparative studies or restrict entire categories of research. A divide already exists between those companies that will allow scientists to develop insect-resistant colonies for research purposes and those that will not.
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    > "The agreement is broad and vague," says Gurian-Sherman. "It's voluntary, and there's no meaningful enforcement. I'm concerned that industry will allow scientists it favors to have seeds - which in itself will be some improvement - but that scientists industry is wary of will still have problems getting those seeds."
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    > The result, he said, may be the illusion that research is now open to all, while creating a divide among scientists and the dilution of science on transgenic crops.
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    > For instance, he points out that conducting experiments that test the yields provided by GM crops against yields using the original non-GM variety, or against crops grown using sustainable farming methods, will remain difficult. In a report for the Union of Concerned Scientists, Gurian-Sherman recently questioned the validity of industry claims that increased crop yields are the result of increased planting of GM crops. Improvements made by conventional breeding, he says, have had more effect on yield than any engineered genes.
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    > "That a company with an interest in the outcome of a study should make itself arbiter of what's good science and what's not good science, I find offensive as a matter of principle," says Gurian-Sherman. "The scientific process is much more subtle than that."
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    > Benbrook, too, remains unconvinced that the agreement will alter the research landscape.
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    > "If you don't expect to still face vigorous challenges to the quality of your science," he says, "you're just naive."
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    > Bill Freese, science policy analyst for the Center for Food Safety, said the ASTA agreement, even if implemented, affects only already commercialized crops. It's vital, he says, to perform studies on GM seeds before they receive federal approval, because once a crop is approved it's almost impossible to get it pulled from the market.
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    > Despite these concerns, Cornell's Shields is willing to see what happens as, over the next months, agreements are brokered between companies and universities.
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    > "If the companies relinquish their gatekeeper role, if they don't decide to pick and choose who they want to negotiate with, if I publish a paper they don't like and I don't become a 'bad scientist,'" then, he says, he'll be optimistic.
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    > As for his named and unnamed cohorts?
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    > "We're scientists," he says. "We like to be left alone. Right now it's spring and we're just thinking of getting out into the fields."
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  2. #2
    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    Animals fed GM food pass on transgenic material through their milk:

    Transgenic target DNA sequences (35S and CP4 EPSPS) were not detected in blood and milk from control goats that received a diet containing conventional soybean meal. By contrast, transgenic DNA fragments were amplified from samples (blood and milk) from goats that received transgenic soybean.
    from: http://www.global2000.at/module/medi...goats_kids.pdf

    If it works with goats it will also work with bees collecting pollen from GM Mais and with humans eating GM soya.

    Doris

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    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Hi Doris

    As I'm sure you know, the transgenic DNA is stitched into the chromosome and looks like, behaves like and just is normal DNA.

    The implication of this is that if you can find 35S DNA fragments in goat blood and milk then you ought to be able to find pieces of any one of the other normal soybean genes in blood and milk too. Is that just as scary, or is it necessary to have the 'transgenic' tag to be worried by this?

    Humans will have been eating (relatively) enormous quantities of 35S DNA over all the time that Homo sapiens was eating brassicas, which must have been much of that time. The cauliflower mosaic virus is a relatively common DNA virus which can be at very high titres in some of the foods we eat, so humans will have been interacting with the 35S promoter since long before man started tinkering with crops in this way.

    best wishes

    Gavin

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    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    Hi Gavin,

    thanks for the explanation. You might be right and this could be perfectly harmless, but I'll be very unscientific now and tell you that I just don't like it. Why can't we leave our food as it is without the tinkering?

    When you look at the oil drilling you could also say that for decades is was nearly perfectly safe and harmless, and suddenly we have an environmental catastrophy. It won't be easy to convince me that GM technology can't come up with it's own environmental disaster in good time.

    And there are other negative impacts associated with GM crops, like the licensing issues and the whole concept of roundup-resistance.

    On our farm we have now used innovative organic methods which have led to bumper crops of grass and cereals. Our animals are doing better than ever before and the whole place is buzzing with insects and birds. It is possible to feed the world with organic agriculture, but those who make their money by selling fertilizers and pesticides will deny it.

    I could post some pictures of our happy Highland cows if you don't think that's too far off-topic.

    Doris

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    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Hi Doris

    As to oil drilling, I've never thought it safe on so many levels. The worst one is not the devastation of ecosytems when things go wrong during drilling, but the continuing pollution of the atmosphere (and indeed the oceans) with greenhouse gases from using that oil. The planet will take a lot longer to recover from that insult.

    Why can't we leave our food alone without tinkering? We've always tinkered, agriculture developed because of it and only keeps going because we continue to do so as - for example - new forms of pests and diseases evolve or appear. It sounds like you are tinkering with food production systems too, and that sounds like it is working and helpful!

    I'm also happy to believe that your organic cows are very happy and healthy. Are they healthy - and your fields alive with biodiversity - because you follow a sometimes strange set of rules to satisfy a certification authority, or because you manage your animals and your land sympathetically? It isn't quite the same thing.

    I see no need for GM to be forever associated with corporate, industrial agriculture. It is just another tool available to make crop production more sustainable, if we were to use it for the right reasons. In a world where by 2050 we will need 70% more food:

    http://www.defra.gov.uk/foodfarm/foo...a-dfid1003.pdf

    ... and fertilisers will be either running out or generated by energy-intensive processes that themselves may not be sustainable, we will need every possible way to help produce food sustainably, unless the predicted population growth is reversed by wars, disease or something else.

    I'm not saying that GM is *the* answer, I don't believe that it is. But it is one tool amongst many that can help, and I don't think that we can afford to throw that tool away because campaigners have been very successful at raising suspicions about it. Time for rational debate about GM amongst beekeepers and beyond I reckon.

    best wishes

    Gavin

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    Oil drilling never has been completely safe. The BP disaster is on an incredible scale, and their safety plans /failsafes have never been adequate. Not all companies are the same though. At the moment almost everyone reading this forum will use fossil fuels on a daily basis, both directly and indirectly: it is near-impossible to avoid all reliance on them in the UK. We can all choose to use less (much much less) and look for alternatives, and IMO we all need to do just that.
    Will GM be the same in 2050? Something that we rely on but nobody feels comfortable with?

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    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    Time for rational debate about GM amongst beekeepers and beyond I reckon.
    Not a good time for discussion for me, am too busy at the moment.

    Just a few notes:

    There was a very good discussion about GM foods on Radio 4 on Tue:
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/console/b00snmbx
    My own opinion goes along the line of Colin Tudge there.

    Regarding the new GM tests for blight resistant potatoes: we have blight resistant potatoes already, no need for GM there, and it can be grown organically:
    http://organicgarden.org.uk/?page_id=4707

    ... just a little challenge for our potato geneticists to get that resistance into our other types of spuds, the traditional way, please.

    Another problem: with GM what you might end up with could be a blight resistant poato for which you have to pay a license fee every time you plant it.

    And once the genes are out there and have spread to other plants you can't call them back.... genies out of bottles. (Which is also how I imagine the oil spilling out of the hole in the ocean floor.)

    ...back to work for me

    Doris

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    Banned Stromnessbees's Avatar
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    One more quick reply:

    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    ... and fertilisers will be either running out or generated by energy-intensive processes that themselves may not be sustainable, we will need every possible way to help produce food sustainably, unless the predicted population growth is reversed by wars, disease or something else.
    There is a way to fertilize the ground in a perfectly sustainable way, driven by solar power and without any nasty by-products: let the legumes do it for you! Actually, there's a very pleasant by-product: honey from the flowers! By growing clover you feed the bees while you feed the soil. That's what organic farming is all about, it's a lot more than a
    strange set of rules to satisfy a certification authority
    .

    Doris

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    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Anne, by 2050 we will have had two generations of people since the GM fuss around 2000, even if youngsters like yourself will probably also be around (I doubt that I will!). I think that most people will be wondering what on earth all the fuss was about.

    Doris - I listened to the R4 programme, thanks.

    Sharpo spuds. It is almost certain that they carry the same kinds of R genes that have failed time after time over the many decades that breeders have been breeding blight-resistant potatoes. They are OK now simply because they have been grown on a small scale until now, and not for many years. The people at the Savari Trust are well aware of this and are themselves worried that the next race of blight to come along will flatten the Sarpo varieties too.

    Every time breeders and geneticists turn to wild species for more resistance genes it has taken 30-40 years to breed a decent potato from that stock. We're doing that again right now, and no doubt we can speed up that process by focusing and using tricks, but not by that much. With the blight resistant types which were trialled a couple of years ago, there were GM versions (only the gene desired was transferred) and non-GM versions (as these still have lots of genes from the wild species they are still a little mixed-up and barely useful as serious potato varieties). Do we really want to handcuff ourselves in this way? If so, why?!! Just because we are frightened of something we don't understand properly, and have had that concern amplified by scare-mongers?!

    Licence fees: well, yes, probably, but if someone has bred something significantly better, and paid the huge costs associated with the highly complex safety testing now required for GMs, then isn't there a reason for that? No-one is forced to grow any one variety, you just choose the one that has the advantages you seek and if you don't like the price, don't buy. Same thing with F1 hybrid seed.

    And as for genies being out of bottles, well, if you fear some grand catastrophe I can see the concern. But these are just essentially domesticated crops, and domesticated crops are not good at surviving on their own. But what grand catastrophe?!

    bye for now

    Gavin

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    Quote Originally Posted by Stromnessbees View Post
    There is a way to fertilize the ground in a perfectly sustainable way, driven by solar power and without any nasty by-products: let the legumes do it for you! Actually, there's a very pleasant by-product: honey from the flowers! By growing clover you feed the bees while you feed the soil. That's what organic farming is all about, it's a lot more than a .
    I'm as enthusiastic about using legumes for sustainable soil fertility improvement as anyone, honest. To me though, this is classic sustainable farming, not something specifically 'organic'.

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