Queen cell size

[Mellifera Crofter]

... you can let the virgins emerge and then make the judgement whether to discard a small queen ..

Does queen size really matter, Jon? Is it an indication of how she might perform?
Kitta

[Jon]

I don't worry much about the size of the queen unless it is really tiny. A poor cell can produce a queen no bigger than a worker.
There is a perception though that big is better and if you sell queens people are likely to complain if they are smallish.

[Kate Atchley]

Very interesting thread. Thanks.

Q1: Came online to ask about queen cell size when choosing them from Q rearing frame. What exactly is regarded as "standard size" for instance? Do those of you who rear lots of queens routinely discard those you think are too small and, if so, what size are they? They look so different from natural cells where much of the depth is beneath the drawn comb so it can be hard to compare.

Q2: I was away for a few days and a fellow beekeeper forgot to remove the slide from the Cloake board I'd left in place while cells were being accepted. The resulting 'take' and queen cell sizes look fairly good but do others have experience of whether is really makes a difference to the Q cells/feeding if the slide is removed, as is recommended?

[Jon]

If you have enough nurse bees and the nutrition is good the cells will likely be ok but they may well have been better in a queenright situation.
I am using a queenless starter colony at the moment and I move them to a queen right setup 24-48 hours later. Sometimes I don't get around to moving the cells and they are capped in the starter colony and these cells have been fine.
It is a strong starter unit though, A Paynes nuc with 6 frames in the bottom part and 5 frames of bees plus the frame of grafts in the top so it is a full 11 frame colony.

[fatshark]

I've spent the last two days in front of an observation hive with a small dark queen in it. I lost count of the number of people who said something like "She's a lot smaller than I expected". Admittedly these weren't beekeepers making the comments. Although it wasn't clear on the frame I chose to display, she had laid a fantastic wall to wall slab of brood on other frames in the box and looked like a very good queen. In comparison to some queens she was small, so I don't think that size is a good indication of quality.

[HJBee]

Is there a greater risk of her getting through an excluder if she is petit?

[Jon]

I have never seen queens pass through an excluder - even very small ones.
Reading some of the online bee forums you would think queens got through the excluder on a regular basis but it is much more likely to be operator error imho.
A small queen can lay up an entire brood box no problem if she has mated well.
The problem is that even the most raw beginner who knows nothing of queens or queen rearing is likely to make some comment about size even if the queen is actually a good one.

[Trog]

Beginner at meeting a fortnight ago commented the queen was smaller than he'd expected but I don't think that was a value judgement, more that he was surprised she wasn't several times larger than a worker - as with some bumble bees.

We did have one queen who got through an old fashioned wire QX when she was young. We called her Twiggy and put a different QX on!

[Jon]

Those wire excluders can get slightly deformed so she may have found a gap where two of the wires had been pushed just a fraction further apart.

Showing your age Trog calling her Twiggy.
Safer to call her Kate Moss!

Anyone one who knows who Twiggy is is probably over 50 like me.

[HJBee]

Don't be to hard on Trig or yourself - I know who twiggy is and I'm not 50, she currently has a lucrative deal with M&S (but I knew who she was before that).