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Thread: Is this the worst science yet on neonics?

  1. #21
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    Not to forget this one as well:

    Evidence for pollinator cost and farming benefits of neonicotinoid seed coatings on oilseed rape
    http://www.nature.com/articles/srep12574

  2. #22

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    I don't know who is right but I think no neonics means more spraying judging by what I see and read

  3. #23
    Senior Member Greengage's Avatar
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    The more I read on this topic the more confusing it gets, All insects play their part in the food chain but some not to the beniifit of us the food consumers, so farmers have to maximise their yield and protect their crops from whatever be it Locusts in China, Rats in Vietnam, Frogs in Australia and Greenfly or whatever in Ireland, As beekeepers we also use chemicals to threat our bees to protect them from Mites. If the chemical is sprayed on the seed and taken up by the plant then ingested by say a honeybee if it does not kill it, It could be possible we ingested through honey, Ok it may be very diluted but if its bad for the insect it must be bad for us, unless in years to come it proves invaluable in that it cure cancer or diabetes, After all we take warafin to thin blood in humans, we also drink flouriide and chloroform, Oh I just dont know.........

  4. #24
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    It is rather complicated, that's the point. The single issue campaigners tend to present a one dimensional view of things.
    Neonics are neither totally benign nor totally catastrophic as some would have you believe.
    Re toxicity, one selling point of neonics is that they have far lower mammalian toxicity than their predecessors such as Carbamates and Organophosphates.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Greengage's Avatar
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    I see Dr Lu has another paper out on neonicotinoid insecticides, this time Randy Oliver ScientificBeekeeping.com takes issue with his findings, I like Randy Oilver's writings on scientific papers he seems to make it easy to follow and talks common sense.
    http://scientificbeekeeping.com/a-re...massachusetts/

  6. #26

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    He doesn't always make sense Greengage
    Americans are way behind when it comes to organic acids and thymol etc
    Randy Olivers claims that Apiguard kills brood are not what most people find
    Plus he seems keen on Exomite Apis type powder thymol which definitely does kill some brood in my experience
    I am not saying that just to disagree I find a lot he says sensible but some of it is just wrong and he gradually backtracks

  7. #27
    Senior Member Greengage's Avatar
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    Most scientific articles are written by scientists for scientists and read by scientists in scientific journals that never se the light of day outside universities or scientific journals, that for me would cost a small fortune to subscribe too. I was not saying he made sense I was refering to the articles, they are easily read, you can make up your own mind wheather he is right or wrong. I dont know if Apiguard is right or wrong, I have been told it affects the queen laying, it can kill weak bees, It can kill brood. I think if you talk to 10 beekeepers you will get 12 different answers, As Donald Rumsfeld was quoted as saying "there are no "knowns." There are things we know that we know. There are known unknowns. That is to say there are things that we now know we don't know. But there are also unknown unknowns. There are things we do not know we don't know"
    I also note Randy Oliver had some pics of Workers removing brood which he claims were killed by Apiguard.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Some colonies do react badly to Apiguard but most are ok. I get the odd one which uncaps almost all the existing sealed brood and removes the pupae. You see heaps of white pupal debris on the insert tray, legs and antennae.

  9. #29
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    Thymol is toxic to bees to only a slightry lesser degree than it is to varroa, I like to see a little debris thrown out when thymol is applied initially or I doubt it's efficiency at killing varroa. Another facet of this is if Miller type feeders are used some of the more badly affected firefighter bees which dealt with the thymol often crawl to places like the feeder trough to die. As with most "soft" chemical treatments it's a case of cruel to be kind or trying to do more good than harm. I have no doubt thymol can set colonies back with a combination of killed brood (neglected during the time the thymol fumes are overwhelming?) Queens going off lay , and some bees dying due to extreme exposue the thymol, but for me it's still my weapon of choice, when amitras resistance becomes widespread tons of beekeepers will lose bees, resistance to thymol is much more unlikely.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Yep, lesser of two evils.

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