Queenless or Queenright?

[drumgerry]

Since I started queen rearing I've used the so called Harden method which as most of you know uses a queenright colony as a cell starter and finisher. Now I've had good-ish results with it - usually getting 60% or so cells started. Now that might be down to my crappy grafting and a host of other reasons but one thing that occurs to me is that I might get a better take and even better queens if I give my grafts to a hopelessly queenless unit instead of continuing with the Harden method. I'd imagine most of us who do this are starting to get organised so it seems a timely question to be asking.

Interested to hear your thoughts on this guys.

[mbc]

I use a cloak board.
http://www.delta-business.com/Calgar...ue%20Cobey.pdf

[drumgerry]

Now that looks nice and easy and makes the top box more truly queenless than does the Harden method. Just need to make one which again doesn't look too difficult

[Little_John]

I use a Morris Board - same principle - queenless for a day (to get the cells started), then queen-right thereafter which invokes the more leisurely and thorough supersedure impulse which creates higher quality queens. No need for starters and finishers and all that malarky, it all happens above just one brood box.

[drumgerry]

It's pretty much what I do already. The main difference which I think both of your methods address is that the Harden method uses distance from the queen in the bottom box to simulate queenlessness. I think using a board of some kind to temporarily make the top box actually queenless might be a better approach and I think I'm going to try it.

[Little_John]

I was reading 'The British Bee-Keepers Guide Book' by T.W. Cowan, 20th Ed. 1911 (first published in 1881) yesterday, in which he describes a truly ingenious method, using slightly different principles, but needing no special gear at all.

For this you need one established colony in a full-sized hive, and one small colony in a NUC box in which the laying queen has proven herself.
Wait for a reasonably fine day in which the girls are flying freely - then simply swap the positions of the two colonies over.

Of course, several thousand foragers of the full-sized hive will now return to the much smaller NUC box. In no time at all, the message becomes clear that: "this box is too small, and we need a bigger one". But - they won't abandon that box straightaway because there's brood present - so swarming is the only option left open to them, and they'll start building swarm cells and selecting eggs and so forth ...

The NUC work-force will be large enough to build q/cells and feed the eggs/larva for the first couple of days, but not thereafter - so as soon as the q/cell construction is seen to be underway and occupied, simply swap the colony positions back again, whilst simultaneously removing the frame(s) with the swarm cells on - carefully brushing the bees off, being careful not to shake it - and then place this above the brood box (and above a Q/X, of course) of the full-sized hive, next to a couple of frames of pollen and stores.

Although these are/were swarm cells, they'll then be reared without urgency as supersedure cells.

I think that's a really ingenious way of producing a few queens using only standard kit ...

[Jimbo]

Hi Drumgerry,

I have used a queen less system for a number of years and get about 60-70% take. I was going to try the queen right system this year as used by the national bee unit as It looks to be less of a faffing about.

[busybeephilip]

You need to be carefull when doing this, I would advise that the queen in the nuc receiving all those strange bees is caged or you might find a dead queen

[Little_John]

You need to be carefull when doing this, I would advise that the queen in the nuc receiving all those strange bees is caged or you might find a dead queen

Yes indeed - I was writing from memory (never a good idea) - and forgot to include that bit. The queen is indeed caged whilst the colonies are 'trans-located' (some 36 hours) as a precaution. Thanks for flagging that up.

[drumgerry]

I'm sure I've heard that the NBU use the Harden method or close to it Jimbo.