Making a difference?

[gavin]

OK folks, I've been a bit quiet on this thread (busy!) but feel I should contribute.

John, Luisa's mentor, is a fine fellow of the highest order. I might strongly disagree with peppering D&G with Buckfast for beginners, but I know that he's generous with his time and has his heart in the right place. I would doubt very much indeed that he is charging Luisa for his time, and I know that he has donated apiary sites to her.

Luisa herself has been immersed in the pro-importation attitude of some (not all!) of our bee farmers, but I understand that even so she is reluctant to continue with these strains and wants to convert them to something more local. If she had joined us here on the forum (maybe she will yet!) she would be exposed to different views that might align better with her own preferences. The attitude that I'm told she is showing is already better than many who sell nucs to hobbyists.

I'm almost tempted to donate after all that!

[drumgerry]

I don't doubt your word that all involved are honourable people Gavin. But you know I'm never going to to agree with a project which doesn't have the use of native bees as a central founding principle - I could be persuaded of its merits if was stated that the use of native bees was a strong objective which could be worked towards.

Maybe Luisa could come on here and we could all persuade her that the pro-importation bee farmers have got it wrong! Sounds like she has an open mind at least which is good.

But the "let's save the honeybees" line has to be dropped by all who use and misuse it in my opinion.

[Jon]

But the "let's save the honeybees" line has to be dropped by all who use and misuse it in my opinion.

Well said Gerry. About 50% of the talk I have to do on Friday is going to be looking at the use and misuse of that line.
Gavin will be in the audience so he can report back in due course.

[John M]

Right first time. Does that make it better or worse?
Being new to this medium I find the way some people misunderstand and then criticise disappointing. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but is it neccessary to assume that Luisa's primary motive is to make money?
A quick lesson in bee economics for this part of the world.
Over the years I have averaged 45lbs of honey per colony and I consider myself to be reasonably competent.
With that in mind the practical minimum you need to make a simple living is about 200 hives so if you are starting from scratch you have to have at least £50,000 in the bank. That will get you the hives and a pretty basic vehicle but does not account for a honey house or extractor to cope with 4 tons of honey. Buy your kit at Thorne's and it will cost nearer £100,000.

So what to do if you really want to make keeping bees your life but don't have that sort of reserves and are subject to a mentor who genuinely believes that there ought to be more bees around. Dumfries and Galloway is 100 miles from Langholm to Stranraer but there can be no more than 1000 colonies in all that distance. That's 1 hive for every 6 sq. kilometres. There is forage for much more and the honey is of excellent quality because we have virtually no OSR.
Which reminds me. Luisa is out of the country at the moment so cannot contribute herself but I know her thinking well. Her apiaries are for the most part 15 to 20 miles from my own and there are very few beekeepers in her area. Like some of you she is of a mind to focus on "local" bees and will be phasing out the alien blood. One possibility is to sell her overwintered colonies with pure bred Buckfast queens of 2013 vintage. That may tick some boxes? Look at the video, they are cracking hives.

I got sidetracked there, some of you are critical of her for exploiting the poor trainees. Yes, she needs their help but they will have a great time and learn a lot. Similarly you suggest that her motivation is to profit from selling nucs. If that were the case do you not think she might be better charging a higher price?
Those of you who still are not convinced, come and spend a day working with me. She has tolerated two years of that and she knows how hard the work is but is still desperate to realise the dream. Maybe the critics could cut her some slack?

[drumgerry]

Eloquently put John. Luisa is clearly very lucky to have a champion in you.

I have no problem with anyone wanting to make a career and business out of their beekeeping.

I do think some of the issues that some people, including myself, have with Luisa's proposal are fair. I think a lot of us are rather weary and cynical about the "let's save the bees" line. I think that needs a major rethink by all who use it. As to exploiting the poor volunteers I'm sure they're all capable of making their own decisions. And regarding strain of bees you'll find few friends of the Buckfast on here.

What you describe in your neck of the woods as to colony density could equally apply to here in Speyside. I would have no problem with an enterprising young person trying to make a beekeeping business work in this area if gone about in such a way as not to conflict with or undermine what the existing beekeepers are doing. The problem is we live in a society with a free for all attitude to beekeeping and I would say there needs to be some regulation introduced to prevent for example imported colonies being brought in large quantities into areas whether seasonally or permanently.

Ps Kitta - I meant to say that I wonder if you're misunderstanding the concept of "crowd funding". As I understand it you give some money to a crowd funded project, the project then can go ahead, and you get whatever it is your level of "donation" has purchased at the end of it all. So really some way away from a straight "buying" scenario. Used lots to fund new board game projects for example and I've even seen it used to generate funding for a company set up to build banjos in this country!

[crabbitdave]

Can I ask john m if he was paid by Louisa to mentor her ?


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[prakel]

Being new to this medium I find the way some people misunderstand and then criticise disappointing. Everyone is entitled to their opinion but is it neccessary to assume that Luisa's primary motive is to make money?

I've no issue at all with someone trying to get on and do something productive. Good luck to her on that score because I'd rather see someone succeed than fail. But, I think that your comment regarding the way this project is being questioned here (and I imagine, on the beekeeping forum too) is a little unfair, you've chosen to try and promote a young beefarmer's business, no matter how altruistic her motives are, on beekeeping forum's. If you had chosen to present her project to a non beekeeping audience then she'd probably have received far less scrutiny and have had more chance of receiving the funding which she seeks.

I think, really, the best thing would be for us all to hold off judging this project until Louisa reaches a country that has internet access so that she can reply herself.

[Jon]

I agree Prakel. I think the comments have been constructive and hopefully thought provoking and if I were in her shoes I would be looking to see if my business model could be improved upon. The opening statement on the thread, 'we are all aware of the comment the bees are in trouble,' was what kicked off a lot of the commentary as it is the kind of comment you would pitch at non beekeepers who assume all our bees are dying from CCD due to the sensationalist press coverage on the matter.
One thing I don't see mentioned is any consultation with ordinary beekeepers in the area or in the local associations. That would be useful to clear up any issues around bee subspecies and suchlike. I may be wrong but it looks like the vision has mainly been moulded by beefarmers and that, in my opinion, is not necessarily in the best interests of bees especially our native bee.

PS John, none of this is personal. This is how good bulletin boards work. Comment is generated without personal attack.

[gavin]

The 'bees are in trouble' thing is worth exploring in more detail so I've started a new thread here.

[John M]

I understand that none of this is personal so I take no offence. I helped Luisa write the narrative of her appeal and the starting point comes from the fact that customers at the door and at markets repeatedly express that the concern that bees are in trouble. Looked after properly that is not the case but it is the public's perception. If you think about it she is more likely to raise funds from the wider public so we opened with that line but I then elected to explore bringing it to your attention with the idea that fellow beekeepers would be sympathetic.
To answer a couple of questions, Crabbit Dave. Luisa has not and will not pay anything for the help I give her.
Jon, Re the local association. I have been seriously involved with the South of Scotland Beekeepers Association for 25 years and have been on the committee for more years than I care to think. I had a lot to do with getting our training apiary at the Barony College including helping to raise the funding for that. This has led to a big increase in the number of members many of whom are beginners. The SSBKA runs training for these, both in the classroom and at the apiary and is trying to rear nucs but as yet cannot meet the demand.
In addition many of our established members lost their bees last winter and I was able to help provide 50 top quality packages at cost plus a £15 donation to the Association. The feedback on the packages is that of great satisfaction.
One or two of the members who side with yourselves on the local bee question have expressed astonishment at how good these bees have been - easy to handle and productive. Sure you need to instal a pipeline to the syrup tank to keep them fed through the winter and that is a definite drawback but our chairman reported that throughout the whole of last summer only two of her students were stung and that was as a consequence of trapping the bee on the frame lug.
That is a long way to say that I think you will find the SSBKA are informed and supportive.

From my side I accept the concerns expressed about mixing the races. Again in the drafting we might have been more clear. Luisa mentions black, carniolan and buckfast bees. At present she has about half of her colonies derived from my stocks which were sourced from various parts of Scotland 20 years ago. I do not describe these as AMM, they are the traditional dark mongrel bee. There is a tiny bit of carnie blood in them from a few queens I bought 5 and 10 years ago but that has led to an improvement rather than the other thing. Beside these she has about half of her colonies as Buckfast bought last year.
Taking note of the concerns you raise it will be perfectly feasible to separate the two races into apiaries which are miles apart. She covers about 20 miles from one end to the other so I see no reason why the degree of gene mixing cannot be controlled. When she gets back I will suggest that to her.
Finally I feel that exchanging ideas and opinions on a forum is a good idea, what I do find objectionable is that some posters make critical comments which question Luisa's motivation without taking the trouble to fully understand what is proposed. In most cases other posters have pointed out their error and for that I am grateful.
When I decided to explore this world I had no idea how interesting it would be. Mind you it does take a lot of time to keep up with developments. I am leaving for the Bee Farmers Association annual conference in an hour or two and will not be back until Monday so will not be in a position to respond further 'til then.