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Thread: Making a difference?

  1. #11
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    Well, that has put the cat among the pigeons, I had not anticipated such a diverse response. Can I start by saying that I agree with most of what has been said and would like to respond. I have been running a large number of colonies of "Scottish mongrel" bees for something like 25 years and am well aware of temperament issues. I consider my bees to be perfectly manageable and have the less than desirable re-queening method of waiting for the bees to produce their own queen cells and splitting. (In other words I am selectively breeding a swarmy bee.) It is a system which works for me but is not ideal. On two occasions in the past I brought in a small number of Carniolan queens which are more gentle and productive than my standard colonies and have not proved a problem in terms of temperament several generations on.
    Last year, as a consequence of the heavy winter losses experienced all over I bought Buckfast packages both for myself and the SSBKA apiary. They have proved to be perfect for the training apiary, their temperament is ideal.
    How their outcrosses behave will need to be monitored carefully.

    One of the points raised is that what Luisa is trying to do ought to be done by the local associations in their training apiaries. Too right. The problem is it is not being done enough to meet the need. I am heavily involved in the SSBKA and last year was able to help to supply 50 of the Buckfast packages to members who had lost their bees at cost plus a £15 donation to the associations funds. Members seem to be delighted and are asking for more this summer.
    So while in an ideal world the association would satisfy demand the reality is that there are potential beekeepers out there who cannot source their bees.
    Then on to mentoring. Absolutely essential. The concerns about Luisa having limited experience are not unreasonable but you must remember that someone working with 20 to 30 hives a day, at least 5 days a week will see as much in a season as the average hobby beekeeper will see in a lifetime. In two years she will have opened a hive perhaps 2000 times and there is not much more I can teach her. However should she need it I am around to advise.
    Fat Shark and jon make the point about the need for training and mentoring targeted at hands on practical beekeeping as well as focussing on exams. I could not agree more. The ssbka has many new recruits and finding mentors for them is a serious problem.
    Finally on the issue of whether we need more bees. We can interpret statistics to say what we want so I will just pick two points from Tom Breeze's paper for you to consider.
    1. The recommended number of honeybees required to provide crop pollination across Europe has risen 4.9 times as fast as honeybee stocks between 2005 and 2010
    2. The UK is 40th out of 41 European countries in its ability to meet that demand. We did manage to beat Moldova but still we cannot meet even 25% of the target.
    Does that not justify needing more bees and beekeepers?

    In conclusion, I hope you will agree her proposal has taken most of your concerns into account and you will be able to offer her some encouragement.

  2. #12
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    As far as I can see all the bee subspecies and Buckfast are gentle when properly managed and crossed within strain.
    The problems arise when you get a different subspecies parachuted into an area where another subspecies predominates.
    How does this project address this issue?
    I have regular problems with beginners in my area who buy bees via one or other of the English mail order companies who plonk Carnica or Buckfast colonies near a mating site.
    As they are beginners they are usually completely unaware of hybridisation issues and the damage this can do to a breeding project. For most of them 'bees are bees' and they are unaware that there are even different subspecies.
    You cannot unhybridise bees once they have crossed and we are losing all the subspecies diversity in the honeybee population due to the proliferation of Ligustica, carnica and Buckfast at the expense of native strains worldwide.
    From the text on the website this project is likely to contribute to that problem.
    I don't think we are short of bees in the UK or Ireland although there is certainly a big demand for bees at the moment as beekeeping has become a trendy pursuit. The breeze paper I linked to was specifically looking at supply and demand re. pollination of certain crops but unless bees are moved from crop to crop most only provide pollen and nectar for 2 or 3 weeks of the season. Oil seed rape can take 4 colonies per acre but what happens after flowering is over?

    edit. by bee supspecies I mean just European honeybee subspecies
    Last edited by Jon; 04-03-2014 at 10:50 AM.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    This paper is worth a read.

    Biodiversity, conservation and current threats to European honeybees

    Pilar De la Rúa, Rodolfo Jaffé, Raffaele Dall’Olio, Irene Muñoz, José Serrano

    Abstract – Europe harbours several endemic honeybee (Apis mellifera) subspecies. Yet the distribution of these subspecies is nowadays also much influenced by beekeeping activities. Large scale migratory bee- keeping and trade in queens, coupled with the promiscuous mating system of honeybees, have exposed native European honeybees to increasing introgressive hybridization with managed non-native subspecies, which may lead to the loss of valuable combinations of traits shaped by natural selection. Other threats to European honeybees are factors that have caused a progressive decline in A. mellifera throughout the world in recent years, leading to large economic losses and jeopardizing ecosystem functioning. We review the biodiversity of European honeybees and summarize the management and conservation strategies employed by different countries. A comprehensive picture of the beekeeping industry in Europe is also provided. Finally we evaluate the potential threats affecting the biodiversity of European honeybee populations and provide some perspectives for future research.

  4. #14
    Senior Member busybeephilip's Avatar
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    Mating sites can be a problem esp when there is secretive beekeepers who have hidden apairies near your mating apairy who use a differenct race to yourself. I am quite lucky as my mating area is surrounded by my own other apairy sites so I am able to concentrate the area with the drones I want so outnumbering the undesirables. This year I'l be back to using II as I have identified "good" breeding stock to use

  5. #15
    Senior Member Mellifera Crofter's Avatar
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    Apart from the misgivings already mentioned about this project and Luisa's inexperience (two years, despite handling many hives, are not enough - she has, in effect, only experienced one season), what I also find disturbing is that she is using people's concern about the bees to ask for money, and to ask volunteers not only to provide her with a season's worth of free labour, but even pay her for that. It is, after all, her own business:

    However she realised that the cost of taking on volunteers (detailed below) are too much for her fledgling business.
    Kitta

  6. #16
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    John M -are you the beekeeper I know from just to the N of Dumfries ? the one I had some Swienty hives from . Grizz (johna)

  7. #17
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellifera Crofter View Post
    It is, after all, her own business:
    Kitta
    I have no objection to someone making a bob or two from beekeeping and I think the proposed price is fair.
    My objections would be centered on lack of mentoring and the lack of thought with regard to bee races and where they are likely to end up.
    The project seems to be more about producing bees than it is about education.
    A few years ago one of the English companies was shipping nucs headed by Carnica queens into varroa free AMM areas in the North of Scotland.
    Whilst not illegal, that was a quite unethical thing to do and again, the beginners who ordered the nucs were unaware of the devastation this can cause.
    I remember a certain Gavin being very annoyed about it.
    The project seems to me to have more of a beefarmer approach to it where the overriding factor is getting bees in boxes from whatever source as opposed to beekeepers working together to improve the quality of bees in their area - without stirring up the genepool with imports every year.
    When there were huge losses in the winter of 2012-2013 the beefarmers argued that economic interests trumped every other consideration. They got subsidies to fill the boxes with non native bees sourced from all over the place. I lost about 20 nucs that same winter and I spent last summer building back up from native stock as opposed to looking for a quick fix. I can perfectly understand the need for beefarmers to make a living but there is a bigger picture and collateral damage on occasion if you happen to be working with native stock and trying to improve the local bees.
    I know this must all seem negative to those involved with the initiative, but it is a completely different vision of bee improvement from the one I have.

  8. #18
    Senior Member Mellifera Crofter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I have no objection to someone making a bob or two from beekeeping and I think the proposed price is fair. My objections would be centered on lack of mentoring and the lack of thought with regard to bee races ...
    Neither do I, Jon. Earning money from my bees was my intention when I got my first hive - but I did not ask anybody to fund me because of the 'Crisis of the Honey bee'. She is running a business and is using the 'crisis of the honey bees' to fund it. I feel a similar annoyance by people going on exotic holidays and then asking me to 'sponsor' their trip for this or that charity.

    As for the proposed price - she does not say whether it is a nucleus or a full colony, neither what kind of hive apart from it being 'affordable'. If it is a full colony in a Paynes hive, for example, then it would be about £50 cheaper than a Paynes colony of bees, but about the same or perhaps more expensive than what I sold bees for last year (the first few bobs I've earned from my bees - and I'm in my fifth year of keeping bees).

    I fully agree with your concern about bee races issue and lack of mentoring. When I got my first hive I was completely unaware about the importance of the native bee and could easily have fallen into the trap of buying bees from far afield. I was just lucky that I got local bees almost immediately. It is a worry that the beekeepers she is going to mentor won't be aware of that.

    Kitta

  9. #19
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    From the link, I think the bees supplied are to be a full colony in a Poly Hive.

  10. #20

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    Any address for this person ? Town will do! Thanx.
    WW


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