Making a difference?

[alancooper]

The development of this thread has been really interesting - initially beginner idealism and eventually old-hand realism.

My first comment (contextual) has been prompted by Jon's "elephant in the room" post and Alclosier's "farming and domesticating for thousands of years" post. We know that most of Europe is a culturally modified landscape - with some parts used/managed intensively for industry (high productivity agriculture and forestry) and some managed at low intensity (hobby farming and green urban). While there is not much most beeks can do about the landscape we work in or our individual circumstances, maintaining local bees adapted to local environments seems to be a wise long-term approach, whether we are working for profit or pleasure.

My second comment (after five years of beekeeping) is that unless a beginner wants to waste a lot of time, energy and money, good training in the science and practice of beekeeping is essential (even if you have a basic education in biology and the environment and buckets of enthusiasm).

[SDM]

Totally agree, mostly urban types who think they're more ecologically in tune than "conventional" beekeepers. Irritates me almost as much as the ones who don't want to harvest honey, so much more eco to leave it on the bees (=wasps once the bees have died from lack of varroa control) when 80% of honey consumed in the UK is imported, not!

Does anyone really think it's anything more than a marketing exercise ? It's rebranding at its worst. Someone will start an "eco bees" movement before long.

[Greengage]

This was an interesting thread maybe they should have read this to see how corwd funding works.
http://www.beeculture.com/it-takes-a-hive/

[Emma]

Totally agree, mostly urban types who think they're more ecologically in tune than "conventional" beekeepers. Irritates me almost as much as the ones who don't want to harvest honey, so much more eco to leave it on the bees (=wasps once the bees have died from lack of varroa control) when 80% of honey consumed in the UK is imported, not!

Trouble is, 100% of the invert syrup consumed by my bees is imported. And I'm sure it's industrially farmed (which probably means a negative energy balance, & big impacts on ecosystems), & industrially processed (more energy, more impacts). And it's heavy: lots of energy is used to transport it. So I'm not convinced that using bees as a "syrup in, honey out" system really makes better ecological sense than my own (ever-distant) beekeeping goal, which is to leave the bees enough honey for their needs, but still have a surplus to harvest.
Substituting syrup for honey can make very good financial sense, of course, but that's a different goal.

[Calluna4u]

Its a widespread practice. 'Raid' is rather emotive though but the reasons are several. (One guy even referred to the practice as 'tomb raiding' showing that his opinion was that it is deadly to the bees. It aint.)

Top one for me is that it is our season for getting fresh brood combs drawn. A watered down version of the way its done in Scandinavia, where many beekeepers actually rehome them on ALL foundation at this time of year (mostly Norway and Denmark I believe, Calluna countries).

The role of the buried pollen is also greatly over played. Our bees at home now are carting the stuff home in large amounts and the new wax on the first of the fresh combs is well splattered with pollen cells, and the making of an arc is visible within a couple of days.

Then you come to economics. At the current price for invert syrup I am paying this year the feed is one fifteenth the price of the honey. One comb of honey pays for all the feeding you will need, and believe me, in many places this year the brood boxes are stuffed wall to wall and top to bottom with calluna honey.

Also...and there is various research to both support and deny this.......but from our experience it is a very clearly proven case......the bees winter far better on well ripened syrup and especially good invert syrup, than they do on heather honey. Far less dysentery. OK, so you get away with wintering on heather honey most years, but give us a long cold winter without bee flight for a couple of months or more then the proteins in the gut give big problems when bees on 'clean' stores are fine. I remember seeing a German study from Bavaria about various types of winter feeding and it showed quite clearly that natural stores were the worst. Not clear exactly what these natural stores were floral origin wise, or even if there was honeydew involved, but the top wintering product out of the full range tested was Api-Invert, one of the best of the invert syrup feeds and one that is free of maltose.

As with everything, its all about proportionality and experience. You get to know what is the right and wrong thing to do, and where I disagree with many of these more 'natural' beekeepers is anthropomorphism. They have their own belief structure and for whatever reason have decided that the way they want to live is also the way their bees want to live. Bee health statistics would say different, but they turn that into a virtue by some slight of hand, interpreting it as natures way of eliminating unsuitable stock.


Sorry, I must have pressed a wrong botton, as this is a response to EK Bee on the subject of nest raiding, and I thought I had quoted him.

[Calluna4u]

The product I THINK you get is made from beet sugar grown in northern Europe. Organic versions also available.

I have had a UK produced invert syrup and would not buy it again. Was cheaper but had real quality issues rendering it barely suitable for bees.

Strangely I am told that one of the brands of invert sold in France actually is made in the UK, but not sold here, unless you buy it from the French company it is made for. Both it and the UK syrup I trialled a few years back were starch derived, whereas the market leading bee feeds are relatively natural in their origin, being produced using locally produced beet sugar and are enzymatically inverted. Negative marketing by at least one vendor states other brands to be acid inverted and bee toxic, but this is just a fabrication to scare people into only buying their brand.


Ditto previous post, in this case to Emma.

[drumgerry]

I think I perhaps used the term "raid" as well. I wonder if you might clarify for me whether "raiding" is done just on brood frames of honey or whether it's also brood frames where brood and honey is present. If nothing else the hygiene aspect would concern me were the second of these commonly carried out.

[Calluna4u]

I think I perhaps used the term "raid" as well. I wonder if you might clarify for me whether "raiding" is done just on brood frames of honey or whether it's also brood frames where brood and honey is present. If nothing else the hygiene aspect would concern me were the second of these commonly carried out.

Honey combs only here, leaving the brood for hatching, but of course in Scandinavian system where ALL combs are replaced they must be removing brood too.

In our heather system all frames are potential brood frames and all are potential honey frames, as we prefer a deeps only system at the heather with no excluders. In September there is often brood elsewhere than the bottom box and some rearranging needs to be done.

[drumgerry]

I think your unlimited brood nest system would be how I'd operate if I was wanting to extract deep frames. Interesting that you say honey combs only "here" - does that imply there are other operators in this country who are extracting frames containing brood? Or am I reading too much into it? Not sure I'd be keen as a consumer on having larval fluid mixed in with my OSR or heather honey!

[Calluna4u]

I think your unlimited brood nest system would be how I'd operate if I was wanting to extract deep frames. Interesting that you say honey combs only "here" - does that imply there are other operators in this country who are extracting frames containing brood? Or am I reading too much into it? Not sure I'd be keen as a consumer on having larval fluid mixed in with my OSR or heather honey!

Reading too much. I do not know exactly how others do it, but know it is quite common in many parts. I was not only talking about Scotland when I said its widespread. Also do not like the idea of brood going through the extractor, and even more so the loosener.