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Thread: Making a difference?

  1. #1
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    Default Making a difference?

    As people with an abiding interest in honey bees we are all aware of the comment "the bees are in trouble." The intent of this thread is to inform you of a genuine attempt to do something which will contribute in a small way to improving that situation. Most of us started by attending courses run by our local associations and if we were lucky we were able to buy a nuc there relatively cheaply or acquire a swarm. But recently the price of nucs and hives has risen steeply and where do you go if you want to take your beekeeping to a larger scale?

    For the last two years I have acted as beekeeping mentor and trainer to a young beekeeper who has decided she wants to make a career out of looking after bees. She is incredibly dedicated and very capable and has made a success of establishing her own series of apiaries.
    She has come to realise that there is a lack of opportunity for others to gain experience of working full time with bees and is arranging to help two young people to learn by working with her for the summer.
    She is also concerned at the cost to new beekeepers of getting their first hive and plans to work with her students to breed up to 50 nucs from her own colonies which will be sold at a very much lower price than that charged by the main dealers. The nucs will be sold at the point where they require to be in a full hive body and a new poly hive is part of the package.

    Some of you will be sceptical and worry that it is just a money making scheme. All I can say is that you are wrong, it is the effort of a group of young enthusiasts to make a difference. Providing food and accommodation for the trainees costs money and buying the new equipment to house the bees is expensive. To defray some of those costs a crowdfunding site has been set up which explains the project in detail. You can access it at crowdfunder.co.uk/generationbee

    If there is anything about this which you don't like don't just post a criticism, please e-mail golden.age.honey.crowd@gmail.com and we will try to answer your concerns.

    If you think that these young people deserve support please consider making a pledge. Spending a whole day working with full time beekeepers will give a hobbyist a new perspective on our craft.
    Last edited by gavin; 03-03-2014 at 09:48 AM. Reason: John, I've updated the post so that your link is now clickable.

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    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    I see from the link that it states 'The bee breeds are a mixture of black, carniolan and buckfast.'
    It is a very bad idea to mix bee races if they are open mated as you are very likely to get bad tempered hybrids.
    Ruttner has published a lot of work on the increased aggression you get when the different bee subspecies are crossed.
    There are many areas in Scotland working hard to protect and promote the native bee, Apis mellifera mellifera and spreading about other races is likely to undermine this but maybe you have thought this through already.
    It might be a good idea to link up with local associations as many of them run a discounted scheme for supplying beginner beekeepers with low cost nucs.
    I agree with you that some suppliers are charging crazy prices and there is an industry geared around making up nucs with imported queens.

    As an aside, bee colony numbers are not actually in decline in either the UK or Europe as a whole.

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    It'll be interesting to see what South of Scotland B.K.A. have to say about this venture.

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    I saw this on the other forum and also the endorsement from Murray et al.
    I wonder of any of the "commercial" money the scottish government granted last year would be available to this venture?
    As a matter of interest, what is the proposed price for these nucs. to beginners?

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    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    From the website

    Together they will work on the mature hives and generate 50 new colonies in the new affordable hives which will be sold for £225 to schools and beginners, significantly less that commercially available equivalent.
    The price is ok if that includes the hive.
    My association provides bees for the beginners at £120 but that is bees only.
    The nucs are headed by queens produced in our breeding programme.
    You also get a lot of mentoring included in that price.

    To be honest, this business does not seem to offer anything more than a decent association should offer and I would be a bit wary about the business being headed by a beekeeper with just 2 years experience.
    One of the things I have been banging on about for years is the number of people who are getting into beekeeping who don't have the skills to sort out routine bee problems especially those associated with aggressive colonies.
    Black* carnica* Buckfast on the same page as 'supplied to schools and beginners' would fill me with dread.

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    Senior Member busybeephilip's Avatar
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    Its a great business idea and should benefit the generation of emerging beginners that seek a ready available supply of bees already hived. The price seems reasonable, but as has been pointed out many times, prices for 5 frame nucs can be excessive - just look at some of the well known bee suppliers. As pointed out above, if the apairys that are being used to rear queens and with open mating are indeed of mixed race then I would be very reluctant to supply these to beginners never mind schools. Its very well documented that some racial mixes produce an extremely aggressive defensive bee

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    Quote Originally Posted by John M View Post
    As people with an abiding interest in honey bees we are all aware of the comment "the bees are in trouble." The intent of this thread is to inform you of a genuine attempt to do something which will contribute in a small way to improving that situation.
    " ... contribute in a small way to improving that situation. " I wonder.

    Your solution to "The bees are in trouble" is to facilitate the keeping of more bees. Whilst - prima facie - that may seem like a good idea, it might be useful to examine exactly WHY bee colony numbers are in decline.

    Apart from the widespread use of insecticides, one other major contributing factor to the reduction of the number of colonies being kept within the UK is the significant reduction in nectar-bearing forage available to bees throughout the season. This is due to many factors: modern farming practices; modern society's intolerance of 'weeds' within the domestic environment; the road verge mowing policies of local councils, and so on ...

    The huge irony here, is that an increase in bee colony numbers into an already depleted foraging scenario will only serve to make matters even worse.

    If you really want to make a difference, then I suggest you could do a lot worse than engage in a compaign to encourage the growing of an array of nectar-bearing plants to provide forage right throughout the season, both in suburban and in rural areas.

    'best
    LJ

  8. #8
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Little_John View Post
    "

    Your solution to "The bees are in trouble" is to facilitate the keeping of more bees. Whilst - prima facie - that may seem like a good idea, it might be useful to examine exactly WHY bee colony numbers are in decline.
    Honeybee colonies are apparently not in decline!
    There seem to be far more issues with bumbles, solitary bees and other pollinators.

    although honeybee stocks have suffered severe declines in many parts of Europe, due largely to the spread of parasites and rising beekeeping costs they remain more resilient to habitat and resource declines than wild pollinators
    Total Stocks, Area and Demand Total honeybee stocks across the 41 countries rose by 7% between 2005 and 2010 from 22.5 M colonies to 24.1 M colonies
    Breeze et al Feb 2014

    I agree with you that one of the the best things we can do is to create and improve habitat for bees.
    Last edited by Jon; 03-03-2014 at 05:30 PM.

  9. #9
    Senior Member fatshark's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by busybeephilip View Post
    The price seems reasonable, but as has been pointed out many times, prices for 5 frame nucs can be excessive - just look at some of the well known bee suppliers.
    But these well known suppliers - almost without exception - sell out pretty early in the season. The reality is that the price of 5 frame nucs appears excessive to those of us who know what is involved in producing them. The demand in April, May and early June is very high. Like Jon, our association keeps prices to our trainees pretty competitive. It was about £110 last year (usually with the loan of the nuc until they can be hived), again with a lot of mentoring provided.

    In my view the mentoring is almost as valuable as the colony … and that appears to be missing in this business venture. Who will provide this? If it's the association the beginners trained in - and credit for only supplying to trained beginners - then this exercise is possibly taking nuc sales away from the association, but leaving them with the responsibility for mentoring.

    On a related point, I feel that many associations could better organise their training, nuc provision and mentoring. Many try and train the maximum number possible. Perhaps a better way might be to train a smaller number with a more complete 'package' … with the nuc provision and mentoring built in. As someone routinely asked - as the season takes off - to mentor new trainees and provide them with nucs, it would help planning my own beekeeping year if I knew I was going to be supplying 10 nucs in late May, rather than finding this out in early March

  10. #10
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatshark View Post
    In my view the mentoring is almost as valuable as the colony … and that appears to be missing in this business venture. Who will provide this? If it's the association the beginners trained in - and credit for only supplying to trained beginners - then this exercise is possibly taking nuc sales away from the association, but leaving them with the responsibility for mentoring. (
    That hit the nail on the head fatshark.
    It is not hard to make nucs of bees.
    It is not even that hard to make up a nuc headed by a queen grafted from quality stock.
    The problem is that your average beginner needs loads of mentoring and reassurance and the best framework for this is a well thought out scheme run by a local beekeeping association.
    Lots of BKAs are running courses geared towards the exams but very few have a good hands on practical beekeeping training and mentoring course for the beginners.
    This is where the need lies imho as there are actually plenty of bee colonies in the UK.
    Some of the commercial beekeepers and a lot of hobbyists were hammered in the winter of 2012-2013 but that was the worst winter most of us had ever experienced.
    There were various reports last year about how London has become completely saturated with new beekeepers in an area where forage is limited.
    The save the Whale/the bees are dying approach is not helpful as it is perpetuating a myth.

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