Your gallery of 2D plots

[Jon]

I think your plot and mine are near enough to say the system is repeatable for practical purposes. The only significant difference is the three wings with high CI on mine. I just double checked them and would stand by 2 but the third could be a fraction lower although still over the red line.

Hi Steve.
I have to hang my head.
I checked all the high CI wings and I also had 3 higher than originally plotted:

2.118 -0.735 0.9858 img174_15R.dw.png
2.275 -1.592 0.8392 img177_10R.dw.png
2.323 -3.214 0.9076 img178_12L.dw.png

I still think it's neither here nor there though!
I would be quite happy to graft from that queen.

[Rosie]

Hi Jon

I agree I wouldn't hesitate to graft from them and and also agree that the original plot was close enough to make the decision on. Out of interest the exact values I obtained were:
2.13 - 175_14
2.2544 -177_10
2.3 - 178_12
So practically the same as your figures. The two systems almost gave the wings the same labels too.

Rosie

[Peter]

Hi Kevboab

Morphometry is certainly used in Austria and Germany for Carniolans. If you download the latest version of MorphPlot (2.2) from here: http://www.stratfordbeekeepers.homecall.co.uk/ and have a look at the MorphPlot sheet you will see that there are red boxes that define the commonly accepted limits for A.m.m. However, you can change this by using the BIG menu at the top to give the limits for the other main races. A problem with Carniolans is that the CI can be above 3, so Philipp Maier in Austria produced a modified version spcifically for Carniolans and that is also available from the site.
Buckfast are hybrids and are of no interest to me.

[Peter]

Hi Steve.
This is the result I got from the scans you sent me.
It coincides pretty well with the one you posted in #152

Attachment 891

I have just (quickly!) done Steve's CD18. Result attached (I hope - still not sure about how all this works!).

Average CI 1.642, DsA +0.833.
29% in the box for A.m.m. unless you change the lower limit to 1.0 in which case we have 32% in the box.

[Rosie]

Thanks Peter

I think your plot looks pretty much like mine and Jon's. I would love to know what sort of ancestry produces such a low CI and high DS. I'm still waiting for Catherine to provide all the answers. So no pressure Catherine if you're watching.

As for the lower limit of of CI, I wonder, as no other race we know of has such low CI, why there should be a lower limit at all. It's the same with the lower limit of DS. Perhaps Gavin might have a clue as to whether crossing AMM with a race that has high CI could possibly cause the CI to fall below that of an AMM. It sounds unlikely to me.

I fear that we don't have enough historical samples to define the limits with much accuracy.

Rosie

[Peter]

Dorian Pritchard says that DsA varies from North to South (not sure about Ireland!). Perhaps that is why CI alone is often quoted in scientific papers.

Agree on low CI. I would suggest that we might set the lower limit to 1.0 - but perhaps not until Kate has some results!

[Rosie]

I wonder of we could get a few more people like Dorian to contribute to this discussion. It would be an excellent way of passing on all their experience.

Another question that niggles me about colony 18 is that the range of the Discoidal shift is fairly narrow. That, to me, suggests some sort of stability or racial purity and yet the average, coupled with the average CI suggests mongrelisation. On the other hand the CI location suggests purity but its spread is large. There must be people around with enough experience to interpret the various plots.

Rosie

[Jimbo]

I have been reading the posts with interest. Dorian's quote that DS varies from north to south is interesting and we may be in a position to look at this. I have a number of scans over the years from Scottish beekeepers. From Orkney, Mull, Colonsay, Argyll & Bute, The central belt of Scotland (Glasgow Paisley) and a few from the East coast. If the DS was compared to results from Ireland, North Wales, Stratford-upon-Avon etc we could confirm if the DS varies from north to south

[Rosie]

plot.JPGHive 2 Aug 2010 p&#108.JPGplot..JPG

Hi Jimbo

Here are a few plots that might be of interest.

GT LLD2 is from an apiary in LLangollen which has been established for many years and has had no outside colonies added as long as we can remember.

DJ hive 2 is a feral swarm from Wrexham

Colony V JW is from my old friend in Nottinghamshire who obtained his bees during the late 1960s from Derbyshire and has not imported anything since.

I have plenty of other interesting plots but most are from apiaries that have moved or have had bees added from elsewhere. I picked these 3 out because they are the most likely to be indigenous to their particular area.

Rosie

[gavin]

On Thursdays clearly my gran's spirit doesn't stop by as I seem unable to interpret these plots in the traditional manner.

Any chance of caucasica introgression in these stocks with DS a little to the right? Hybrids must be hard to spot on other grounds.

John Durkacz (he hasn't posted here for a while) had a plot from a Sutherland sample which showed a tight knot of (Amm) spots. I remember saying that these may be inbred (the situation would imply so) and so maybe that spread that you see Rosie is simply reflecting a broad genetic base, probably a good thing.