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Thread: Your gallery of 2D plots

  1. #111

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    Hi Gavin

    Don't change anything!

    Best wishes

    Peter
    Peter Edwards

  2. #112

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    Try this one.

    Best wishes

    Peter

    887.jpg
    Peter Edwards

  3. #113
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Hi Peter
    That looks quite similar to some of mine.
    What is the geographic origin of the queen?
    Any Galtee genetics in there?

    If you look at the two I posted on the previous page, 44 and 48, these are sisters and 44 is mated with mainly Galtee drones (thanks Mervyn!) whereas 48 was mated in my own apiary where I had no (known) Galtee genetics at the time.

  4. #114
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    A queen mates with up to 15 drones.
    Sometimes on a drawwing plot there seems to be a cluster of 4 or 5 points quite distinct from the rest of the wings plotted.
    I imagine that this could be the influence of a single drone of the various drones the virgin queen mated with.
    The problem is that the typical sample size is 40-50 wings which is small.
    I wonder if 1000 wings from the same colony were plotted would these separate out into significantly distinct clusters- ie if the queen mated with 10 drones the scattergram would start to show several distinct groups which you will never see in a small sample size. If drones came from 4 different colonies you might start to see 4 distinct groupings appear.

    In this one which I posted the other day there is a distinct group with a high CI and another with a positive DS. Even within the main cluster within the AMM limits it looks like there are several clusters within it. Pure speculation with a small sample size but might be interesting to keep sampling the same colony once a month to build up a really large sample.

    Peter - is there a limit to the amount of data which can be posted into morphplot?

    col75.jpg

  5. #115
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    Hi Peter,

    I also have some plots like your's I will need to have another go at posting plots to let you see them.
    Jon you may be right about sample size. I know from my day job that sample size is important if you are looking for small changes. We tend to process thousands of samples in population genetics. If the sample size is too small you can miss some differences.
    I have also seen variation in my results from the same colonies that I have now sampled twice. It will be interesting (if they make it through the winter as the queens are getting on a bit) to get a third sample in the spring from these colonies.
    Even though there is some variation they are still between 85% and 95% Amm

  6. #116
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    85-95% on a plot probably means that it is what you want, unless you've taken stringent measures to avoid sampling bees that drifted. I remember a German video where they only sampled emerging workers individually with forceps, but for our purposes youngish bees from the brood nest, maybe after a light shake, should do the business. Not so easy at this time of year. It was quite instructive having a Buckfast colony a few years ago - they turned up everywhere and one colony in particular (not the closest) had larger numbers.

  7. #117
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    OK
    I have a chance to do an experiment here.
    I removed the queen 75 from an apidea at the start of September and requeened part of colony 45 which was only about 35% amm..
    The apidea then made a scrub queen which never mated and has been dwindling since September.
    I have just discovered that the bees in this apidea are dead/frozen.
    All these bees should be from queen 75.
    There are about 100.
    I checked them one by one and not a single one has any yellow banding on it.
    I will plot the wings now and see how they compare to the scattergram I posted above.
    If the scattergrams don't coincide it means that the one above must still have had bees from the previous colony.
    It is very unlikely that bees have drifted into an apidea with an unmated queen.
    Watch this space.

  8. #118
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Hmm.

    The bees from the apidea gave a much better looking scattergram.
    The other one I posted must still have had workers from the previous queen Q45.

    75-apidea.jpg col75.jpg col45.jpg

  9. #119
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    That's good news then Jon.

    Can I take you back to my post No 105.

    If it had been genuine with none of the previous queen's bees or drifters, the plot would suggest that she had mated with one or more drones of a different race. That means that the larvae she was producing are suspect. If you take a worker from the bottom left of the plot I would have thought that there is no way of knowing if that particular bee had inherited her mother's wings but her (exotic) father's other characteristics. Hence it could be almost as dangerous grafting from that position as the opposite corner. Perhaps it should be assumed that once you have a spread of wings in any plot then it would be very difficult to get back to anything pure, regardless of the number of grafted queens you are prepared to cull. Of course, if that's the best stock one has then we just have to accept that any breeding programme will be tedious and yield slow results.

    Rosie

  10. #120
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    I am not sure it works like that. Maybe Gavin or Jimbo can explain better than me.

    When you graft a larva with a view to turning it into a queen you have no way of knowing where it would have been on the scattergram had it developed as a worker.
    If it develops as a queen, flies and mates with various drones, then the scattergram from this one will reflect these drones as well.

    If you take a pure galtee virgin queen and inseminate it with semen from 5 galtee and 5 ligustica drones your chance of getting a pure galtee daughter from a graft will be 50/50 assuming that each drone donated 10% of the semen.
    In each case a larva grafted will be the result of an egg from the mother galtee queen and a single sperm from her spermatheca, either one from a galtee drone or one from a ligustica. In this example you will average 50% pure galtee virgin queens, and 50% galtee/ligustica hybrid virgin queens from the larvae grafted.
    And all drones would be pure galtee.
    Last edited by Jon; 10-12-2011 at 06:05 PM. Reason: clarified

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