Horner method for controlled mating

[Jon]

it's impossible to design a perfect scientific experiment, especially with bees.

Beats the hell out of anecdote though!

[Jon]

Hopefully Peter Edwards is watching this and will be able to confirm that he has seen a queen returning with a mating sign at 5 degrees C.

I heard him say that at the conference in Cahir. Was it definitely a mating flight showing the mating sign? I have seen them take orientation flights at low temperatures including one I posted about in November a couple of years ago.

How do you know Galtee are pure Amm?

I don't for sure but studies such as the Jensen and Pedersen paper would strongly suggest that.
Most of the Irish samples in the study were Galtee related.

Are you sure queens can mate properly in 15 minutes?

Jerzy Woyke published papers on mating flights. Most queens fly just once to mate but some fly 2 or 3 times and occasionally more.

The apiary vicinity mating I have seen in my own apiaries takes 10-15 minutes.
I find eggs in the apidea 2-3 days after the mating flight.

[Rosie]

It usually does Jon but I am confident that it's possible for anecdote to be right when science is wrong. Blind faith is a mistake and anecdote has lead both Little John and Prakel to rightly question the report I cited. Until we develop the motivation and financial incentives to scientifically and thoroughly investigate races a lot of bee science will continue to be questioned. Whenever I read a new paper I ask myself how it will affect my own beekeeping but I often wonder what would have happened if the research had been done with my own bees in my own situation. Thanks for the Landes stuff, by the way.

[Jon]

Woyke papers on mating flights

http://jerzy_woyke.users.sggw.pl/causesmat1964.pdf

http://jerzy_woyke.users.sggw.pl/1962_nat_artins.pdf

[Jon]

It usually does Jon but I am confident that it's possible for anecdote to be right when science is wrong.

anecdote has lead both Little John and Prakel to rightly question the report I cited

Any science should be questioned as a matter of routine. There is good science and quack science.

I would consider myself a very interested observer of bee behaviour - but it is possible to kid yourself as to the underlying reasons for what you are observing or get confused as to what you are actually observing. Ley lines springs to mind!

Look at the number of beginners on the forums who ask if their bees are swarming when they are witnessing multiple orientation flights after a spell of bad weather. Someone asked that question in November on BKF.

I look at the design and methodology of the study to see if it holds water. Most of the studies claiming that neonicotinoid pesticides are making the sky fall are easy to pick holes in for example.

[prakel]

Blind faith is a mistake and anecdote has lead both Little John and Prakel to rightly question the report I cited.

Hi Rosie, just to be clear about this, I'm not questioning the paper -on the grounds that the people who wrote it are cleverer than me AND they made the effort to carry out the experiment, in fact, having read it previously as the result of a search for references to miniplus usage I hadn't formed any issues with the study itself. My questions were aimed at Little_John's post, notably the factual statement that amm frequently mate under poor weather conditions which carnica find non-conducive to mating.

With regard to whether the usage of carnica workers in all of the mating nucs had any effect on the mating of the queens, if I thought that there was an issue, I would probably have speculated that it would skew the results in the other direction -amm queens mating with carnica drones.

[Jon]

With regard to whether the usage of carnica workers in all of the mating nucs had any effect on the mating of the queens, if I thought that there was an issue, I would probably have speculated that it would skew the results in the other direction -amm queens mating with carnica drones.

Not if one of the main drivers of a mating flight is to mate to unrelated drones and the workers have some role in facilitating this.

It may be totally irrelevant but a well designed study needs to eliminate the alternate explanations.

[Little_John]

Is it that well known? Who knows it, as a result of long term comparative observation? How do we quantify 'poor weather conditions'? How bad must the weather be to allow amm a mating advantage over carnica which itself isn't generally thought of as a soft bee?

I'm attaching 3 graphics of screen-grabs (as this forum's attachment method isn't working for me) from 'Breeding Better Bees' which may be of interest. I won't take the bait from the rest of your post, for as a former scientist myself I have little faith in single-variable biological experiments themselves, but far more faith in reports of experientially-gained knowledge from reputable sources. Of course, if you should consider the opinions of Messrs Ruttner, Dews, Milner, Cooper and Mobus to be mere worthless anecdote, then there's nothing further I can usefully add to this debate.

[prakel]

I won't take the bait from the rest of your post

Lets not go down that route, there was no 'bait' in my post at all, straight questions. I've no axe to grind on this subject. This forum benefits from a self regulated willingness to discuss this stuff and to learn from each other in an open and friendly manner.

Now, with regards to Ruttner's comment (which you highlighted, page 16) regarding wet summers being more significant (to colony survival) than cold winters, where did the reporting of Ruttners words actually stop? Without a specific quotation it's hard to know whether he said, or the writer added, "This has a strong selective influence in favour of the dark bee".

My interest is a general one as I don't have these amm bees but of the three pages which you posted by far the most interesting paragraph for me was one which you didn't highlight, page 17, regarding Dr Gudrun Koenger's work. I think that a write up of her research would make for interesting holiday reading.

[prakel]

Not if one of the main drivers of a mating flight is to mate to unrelated drones and the workers have some role in facilitating this.

Interesting hypothesis which I hadn't thought of....