Maud bees

[Jon]

But the problem is that those of us who are interested in bee breeding and bee improvement are the people routinely using wing morphometry.
From earlier comments in the thread, it's clear that wing morphometry has been used by Bibba people since the 1970s at least so there could well be a selection artifact at this stage.
My position on wing morphometry is neither for nor against, but I would like further clarification as that Moritz paper does throw up a lot of doubts. Germany has one of the best organised bee improvement programmes in the world and they use wing morphometry as part of the selection process and it clearly has not been good enough for the breeders to distinguish Carnica from Carnica hybrids. This is all spelled out really clearly in the paper.
Germany is light years ahead of the UK in terms of bee breeding yet they fell into this trap with the selection artifact.
Could UK breeders be making the same mistake?

[Rosie]

They should not have been using wing morphometry alone. It would be daft to breed poodles by measuring tail length only. You don't need to be a scientist or wait for a scientific paper to know that it takes lots of behavioural and morphometric assessments to judge breeding stock. Peter will speak for himself but, despite being a wing advocate his slection programme or "studbook" is well known and recommended by BIBBA. He uses over 20 assessment criteria of which wing morphometry is just one. I also know that you, Jon, don't rely too heavily on wing morphometry.

Steve

[Jon]

I also know that you, Jon, don't rely too heavily on wing morphometry.

Hi Steve
I take samples and keep the data but I am not sure how much it tells me other than indicating the odd colony is more heavily hybridised than it would appear on the basis of colour.
If I see yellow banded workers I don't need to look at wings to know the queen has mated with some yellow drones.

I remember you posting a scattergram on the old bbka forum which was a high percentage AMM scattergram but you indicated that the bees were mainly yellow.
I find it hard to see how a sample which is obviously hybridised (yellow) could have a high percentage AMM scattergram.
This applies even more so in areas where the background population is mixed such as West Sussex where Roger does his bee improvement. How could you get high percentage AMM scattergrams from an area like that without there being a selection artifact in play? It is not possible to unmix the genetics and get back to AMM from a population like that but it is clearly possible to end up with high percentage AMM scattergrams.
A dark bee may be Apis mellifera mellifera but could in fact be a hybrid.
A yellow worker is categorically not AMM and must be a hybrid (or a pure Ligustica or a Buckfast)

[Rosie]

I find it hard to see how a sample which is obviously hybridised (yellow) could have a high percentage AMM scattergram.

Why can't the genetics a bee has taken from ligusta affect colour and not wings? Of the millions of alleles a bee carries who can predict which ones will appear in a hybrid? I still struggle with yellowness in my bees although I do get the occasional completely black colony. It only tells me that there is some other race in there but it does not tell me how much. They could be much purer than my neighbour's black bees that have a small amount on carnica in them. In fact I am always suspicious of totally black bees because the ones who's wings I have tested have always had a large spread on the scattergram stretching well up into the carnica range. Dave Cushman once told me that a bee can be almost pure AMM and still have yellow colouring.

I only became proficient at wing morphometry about 4 years ago and until then was not using it at all and neither was the person I originally bought my bees from and he had obtained the strain about 45 years ago. They had obviously never been selected using wings and still showed good wings and poor colouring. However, their behaviour has consistently been about right - especially their winter feed consumption which usually works out at about 12 pounds although I try to get their stores up to about twice that so they have a good margin.

[The Drone Ranger]

I wonder if readers might be interested in a chicken tail
The Dorking is an "ancient" breed brought here by the Romans no less and always has 5 toes instead of the normal 4
No true Dorking will ever produce sons or daughters with any less (or more) than 5 toes
Anything starting to ring bells here ?

Heres a little description courtesy of Omlet.co who sell the hive of the same name

"The Dorking is a breed of chicken that is believed to have originated in Italy during the period of the Roman Empire under the reign of Julius Caesar. They believed it was the purist breed as it had 5 claws. It was introduced to Great Britain where much of its development took place. It appeared in the very first British poultry show in 1845. It has always been prized for its white flesh and its eating qualities."

Now there are a few "believed's" in there but in essence the claim of breeders is that the chicken has been around since the Roman times and the proof rests on it's 5 toes
However the bird was shown in 1845 leaves me thinking well the Romans left in AD 410 or there about's ?? can I believe they were kept as a pure breed all that time ??
I don't think so -- for starters they are not particularly good layers and as utility birds they would not stand the test of time.
Would people have kept them for their feathers 1000 years ago or their 5 toes not a chance

Yet there is a slim chance because flocks might form a closed population so that means the claim can't be refuted
Only the most naive of us would accept that possibility

Viking graves, wings, isolated populations since the 8th Century Vikings or (sometimes claiming since the Ice Age) all very innocent but unlikely fun
We have no idea what those bees were like well over 1000 years ago so any claims about them are really about much more recent bees
So fine let's have AMM bees but let's not make claims for them that they are the original bees of Britain and were wonderful no-one has any idea what they might have been like.
I would like Maud bees please wherever they came from

[Jon]

So fine let's have AMM bees but let's not make claims for them that they are the original bees of Britain and were wonderful no-one has any idea what they might have been like.

There is plenty of evidence that they are the original (native) bees of Britain.
More difficult to vouch for their character several thousand years ago.

Are honey bees (Apis mellifera L.) native to the British Isles?
Norman L. Carreck1*.
Journal of Apicultural Research and Bee World 47(4): 318–322 (2008)

[Pete L]

I would like Maud bees please wherever they came from

Their ancestors could well of been parachuted in from France fifty years earlier.

Good chicken story.

[Rosie]

Dorkings were kept for their meat, not their eggs and excelled at producing quality carcases.

All that has nothing to do with wild creatures like bees.

[The Drone Ranger]

Dorkings were kept for their meat, not their eggs and excelled at producing quality carcases.

All that has nothing to do with wild creatures like bees.

What are Dorkings kept for now though Steve?, I would say it's only for their looks

Here's a modern chicken
True it's a cross, and line bred so you won't be able to breed from them or even produce your own but they are productive and long lived.

https://www.omlet.co.uk/breeds/chick...gernut+ranger/

The Gingernut Ranger is a prolific egg layer and lays large brown eggs. They are placid, friendly and inquisitive. They are also exceptionally easy to tame and will follow you around when you are in the garden. They are hardy birds who are very happy free ranging and love to forage. They make excellent pets for children due to their gentle nature and friendliness.
Varieties

The plumage of the Gingernut Ranger is rich red with either black or white tail feathers


Here the emphasis is on productivity not feathers or toes I guess

Are bees truly wild ? I think not, otherwise there would be no bee improvement over the hundreds of years.
I think beekeepers might have been more concerned with how they performed than the colour or their appearance
Possibly they have always been gentle and allowed humans to poke around in the hives but I doubt it

[Jon]

I would be wary of an egg which is placid, friendly and inquisitive.
That is not what you expect from an egg.