Colonsay reserve approved!

[Trog]

Jim, some of my samples were more pure AMM than others, weren't they? Mind you, the results from the wing morphometry on some that I'd assumed weren't very AMM because of their yellow colouring seemed to be 'blacker' than they looked. We're taking part in the nosema testing project so should we keep the wings from the frozen samples for you to have a look at? Or perhaps you'd like to come over and do a winter session to show us all how to do it? We have microscopes available.

Kitta, the AMMs seem to be keeping themselves pretty pure - possibly because they mate in worse weather so are perhaps the only ones out and about a lot of the time! They also tend to mate next to the apiary. With this summer having been so hot, it'll be interesting to see how this year's queens' offspring turn out. Maybe they'll be less pure! Certainly there's not much point my trying to get pure matings here as we have a lot of ferals about. Nor would I attempt it; I like the mixtures and, as I said, not all AMMs are lovely in every way!

[drumgerry]

This might be a slight deviation Trog but I think, and I'm sure anyone who breeds any (I hesitate to say it in relation to bees) livestock thinks, that selection pressure needs to be brought to bear before you can get bees of the type you want. AMMs left to their own devices may not be anything special although they'll likely exhibit traits that we recognise like flying in less than optimum conditions. I'm sure Galtee, although they started with AMMs, had to spend a number of years selecting for temper and productivity to get bees they are happy with (maybe someone with experience of their breeding programme could explain further?). I'd be concerned for the future of AMM as a bee of choice unless we can provide people with good tempered and productive bees. No reason that can't be done - we just have to select for those traits.

[Jon]

The Galtee bees are both docile and productive and that is the fruit over 20 years selection including an II programme.

[gavin]

OK Jon. Here is Andrew's letter.

[Peter]

[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;21667]Hi Drumgerry

This is the press take on the legislation taken from the BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-24428707

What a pity the BBC chose to have a picture of a hybrid!

[Peter]

Pity the BBC used a picture of a hybrid - and got the wording wrong!

[gavin]

The consultation documents including all the responses are available here:

http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/En...eeconsultation

[Phil McAnespie]

OK Jon. Here is Andrew's letter.

Having spent all day at the computer answering emails in respect of the SBA I can assure you that the last thing I wished to do at this time of the morning (0220 hrs) was to once again comment on incorrect assertions which people make about me.
In the September SBA magazine I wrote:
“I will however respond about the rearing of local black bees in Scotland. I have discussed this type of bee with many older and extremely experienced beekeepers who indicated that they would not wish to work with them again. Their experience was that the bees, though very frugal were slow to build up, usually not even tempered and although producing honey in many different climatic conditions were not so appropriate for our present day farming.
That having been said, it is the interest of some beekeepers to rear and promote this type of honeybee today and that should be applauded and encouraged as in the case of the SBA support of the Colonsay Project.
It has been my experience however that those who appear to have this bee are very unwilling to produce them in quantity and disseminate them to others. I personally have tried on occasions to purchase a stock and have always been unable to do so.”

The question I ask myself is, where in these comments am I, quote: “rubbishing the black bee as not worth bothering about” as, stated by Andrew Abrahams?

The experience I have had with a friend’s bees, which, after wing morphometry appeared to be Amm, was exactly as I wrote and from the posts here, is the same experience as commented by Trog. Further to that and far more impressive as far as experience is concerned is that this is the view expressed by very experienced beekeepers whom I have spoken with including one who has held an NDB qualification for many years and worked with Amm. This is not to say that all Amm bees are alike. They vary as do every type of bee but the experience of those, I have spoken to was, that they were a bee for the clover and heather crop in particular.
This in no way “rubbishes” the Amm bee but purely comments that they are not all alike. Surely that holds good for every race of bee.
In respect of farming practices is concerned, there have been huge changes in recent years. Crops, boundaries, hedges, set aside, fertilisers, wild meadows etc have all caused an issue for our honeybees and unfortunately have to be taken into account in our beekeeping practices.

In respect of Andrew’s comment quote: “advice is merely the prejudice of others”
There is a world of difference between “advice” and “experience.” I learned a huge amount from an old mentor who had a vast amount of beekeeping “experience” and never once evidenced any “prejudice”.

In respect of trying to obtain Amm colonies, I can truthfully say that I tried to buy bees from Andrew and others with no success. I discussed this at length one evening recently with Andrew and spoke about the fact that those with them should be involved in more breeding programmes if they wish to strongly promote their use. When it comes to having a desire to see Amm reintroduced to areas, selling nucleus colonies is not the way to bring it about. Utilising stock to accompany a queen is a waste of resources. Whereas utilising that same stock to rear queens has a far greater potential. This does have mating difficulties in many parts of the UK and Instrumental Insemination brings about a greater potential of success in the professional’s hands.

In respect of Andrew’s kind invitation I have agreed to go to Colonsay next year and am very sure that I will experience quality stock. Having discussed with Andrew photographic images from the past I am very sure that there were days gone by when colonies, of whatever race, were extremely calm and pleasant to work with and the colonies on Colonsay may well be the same.
My comments were expressed in an article written originally about the importation of honeybees and should be read in that context. Anyone who knows me, knows that I have the greatest respect for all races of honeybees. I don’t believe they are all appropriate for all locations and some have qualities better than others but I have never expressed views, which “rubbish” any type of honeybee, and I certainly object to that assertion.

Just for clarification in respect of the Colonsay, Oronsay project is concerned, I with others on behalf of the SBA executive attended meetings at Edinburgh and there sought to support this project. I discussed various aspects in relation to practical legal issues and gauging from the posts in this discussion my comments have come to pass. There is a difficulty in providing an exact legal definition of Amm and from the coverage of the act it appears that someone with Amm bees from any location can take them onto the two islands. I am aware that Andrew would wish this to be different and I support him in that view, however the legalities of the situation may provide a difficulty if challenged. I do trust however that this does not come to pass and that Andrew is able in time to work with the stock he has on the island.
The legislation can be found at the following site:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/20...0130279_en.pdf

As an aside, the SBA as an organisation recommends that local good quality stock should be used for rearing colonies.

Phil McAnespie

[Phil McAnespie]

Having spent all day at the computer answering emails in respect of the SBA I can assure you that the last thing I wished to do at this time of the morning (0220 hrs) was to once again comment on incorrect assertions which people make about me.
In the September SBA magazine I wrote:
“I will however respond about the rearing of local black bees in Scotland. I have discussed this type of bee with many older and extremely experienced beekeepers who indicated that they would not wish to work with them again. Their experience was that the bees, though very frugal were slow to build up, usually not even tempered and although producing honey in many different climatic conditions were not so appropriate for our present day farming.
That having been said, it is the interest of some beekeepers to rear and promote this type of honeybee today and that should be applauded and encouraged as in the case of the SBA support of the Colonsay Project.
It has been my experience however that those who appear to have this bee are very unwilling to produce them in quantity and disseminate them to others. I personally have tried on occasions to purchase a stock and have always been unable to do so.”

The question I ask myself is, where in these comments am I, quote: “rubbishing the black bee as not worth bothering about” as, stated by Andrew Abrahams?

The experience I have had with a friend’s bees, which, after wing morphometry appeared to be Amm, was exactly as I wrote and from the posts here, is the same experience as commented by Trog. Further to that and far more impressive as far as experience is concerned is that this is the view expressed by very experienced beekeepers whom I have spoken with including one who has held an NDB qualification for many years and worked with Amm. This is not to say that all Amm bees are alike. They vary as do every type of bee but the experience of those, I have spoken to was, that they were a bee for the clover and heather crop in particular.
This in no way “rubbishes” the Amm bee but purely comments that they are not all alike. Surely that holds good for every race of bee.
In respect of farming practices is concerned, there have been huge changes in recent years. Crops, boundaries, hedges, set aside, fertilisers, wild meadows etc have all caused an issue for our honeybees and unfortunately have to be taken into account in our beekeeping practices.

In respect of Andrew’s comment quote: “advice is merely the prejudice of others”
There is a world of difference between “advice” and “experience.” I learned a huge amount from an old mentor who had a vast amount of beekeeping “experience” and never once evidenced any “prejudice”.

In respect of trying to obtain Amm colonies, I can truthfully say that I tried to buy bees from Andrew and others with no success. I discussed this at length one evening recently with Andrew and spoke about the fact that those with them should be involved in more breeding programmes if they wish to strongly promote their use. When it comes to having a desire to see Amm reintroduced to areas, selling nucleus colonies is not the way to bring it about. Utilising stock to accompany a queen is a waste of resources. Whereas utilising that same stock to rear queens has a far greater potential. This does have mating difficulties in many parts of the UK and Instrumental Insemination brings about a greater potential of success in the professional’s hands.

In respect of Andrew’s kind invitation I have agreed to go to Colonsay next year and am very sure that I will experience quality stock. Having discussed with Andrew photographic images from the past I am very sure that there were days gone by when colonies, of whatever race, were extremely calm and pleasant to work with and the colonies on Colonsay may well be the same.
My comments were expressed in an article written originally about the importation of honeybees and should be read in that context. Anyone who knows me, knows that I have the greatest respect for all races of honeybees. I don’t believe they are all appropriate for all locations and some have qualities better than others but I have never expressed views, which “rubbish” any type of honeybee, and I certainly object to that assertion.

Just for clarification in respect of the Colonsay, Oronsay project is concerned, I with others on behalf of the SBA executive attended meetings at Edinburgh and there sought to support this project. I discussed various aspects in relation to practical legal issues and gauging from the posts in this discussion my comments have come to pass. There is a difficulty in providing an exact legal definition of Amm and from the coverage of the act it appears that someone with Amm bees from any location can take them onto the two islands. I am aware that Andrew would wish this to be different and I support him in that view, however the legalities of the situation may provide a difficulty if challenged. I do trust however that this does not come to pass and that Andrew is able in time to work with the stock he has on the island.
The legislation can be found at the following site:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/20...0130279_en.pdf

As an aside, the SBA as an organisation recommends that local good quality stock should be used for rearing colonies.

Phil McAnespie

[prakel]

There is a difficulty in providing an exact legal definition of Amm and from the coverage of the act it appears that someone with Amm bees from any location can take them onto the two islands. I am aware that Andrew would wish this to be different and I support him in that view, however the legalities of the situation may provide a difficulty if challenged. I do trust however that this does not come to pass and that Andrew is able in time to work with the stock he has on the island.

Great news -I'd previously thought (based on the excellent article which he wrote about Tasmanian beekeeping for Bibba) that he may have been the unnamed person mentioned in this thread here:

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ns-for-imports

Was chatting to a well known AMM breeder on a island up north,even he was thinking about importing some breeder queens, either from Denmark or Tasmania

Which of course would have blasted a hole right through the spirit of the scheme. Glad to hear that it's not him after all.