Completely agree Pete. There's no reason the commercial guys can't do it - the convenience of importing is there though to stop them (or some of them)
Completely agree Pete. There's no reason the commercial guys can't do it - the convenience of importing is there though to stop them (or some of them)
Not sure that I agree. There is a good reason in that at the time that is best for queen rearing anyone with a 'commercial' number of production colonies will probably be working 16 hour days managing them, extracting the spring crop etc. Even on my small scale (around 150 colonies) there are many days when I just don't stop running. 9 day inspections would require me to look at around 17 colonies each day - 7 days a week - but that number increases when the weather works against you, so perhaps 25-30 is more realistic. That is not too bad - until half of them have queen cells, honey needs taking off and extracting - and you get half a dozen orders for honey. Not much time left for queen rearing!Originally Posted by drumgerry
If you also move colonies for pollination then it all gets even more fraught. It would be fine if there was enough profit to employ staff, although that introduces a whole raft of work in itself.
Peter Edwards
Maybe a more realistic number of colonies might be in order for the commercial guys then Peter. Harsh but they have to have businesses which are sustainable surely? And aren't most of the bigger guys team operations anyway? I still think they should be devoting a portion of their operation to queen rearing. I appreciate that being a commercial beekeeper involves long working hours at certain times of year but that's the nature of the beast.
And I've said it before and I'll say it again and you can accuse me of being harsh if you like - if they can't make their businesses work in a sustainable way that isn't harmful to the rest of us maybe they need to go the way of the dodo. To quote Metallica: "sad but true".
This a bit strong IMHO Jon.
There is great merit in preserving as many local ecotypes as possible. I applaud your subtle attempts at Irish amm imperialism, but to my mind it would be a great loss to British beekeeping if we were to identify only one good line of amm bees and multiply them anywhere well meaning people wish to work with amm. There is no doubt at all that there was(and is) great variation in native bee populations, and while I'd go along with culling bad bees from breeding efforts all over, I think our overall position would be much more robust for the future if as many different types of our native honey bees as possible are preserved for future generations.
Any papers showing greater variation within a population than between distinct populations are a bit of a red herring IMHO as its obvious to anyone with a pair of eyes that bees within a population can follow a 'type' that can be quite different to purportedly genetically similar populations elsewhere ( I am quite happy to admit that even 'basic' genetics baffle me !). The late Grif Jenkins of Cwrtnewydd used to have large brown hairy bees which were undoubtedly native, off the scale with negative discoidal shift if morphometry is your thing, and used extensively by BIBBA members to establish amm lines elsewhere ( Derbyshire), Welsh amm imperialism was alive and well in the 20th century !
Colonsay reserve approved!
It is a complex one, this. I'd have no qualms about trying some of Andrews stock here, not because they're Scottish but because he sourced his stocks from different parts of the mainland and since then they've been in a closed system. But I would be reluctant to introduce Irish stock simply because there are still local types to be found here. Some are weak and unsuitable, some nasty (maybe due to hybridity, maybe not), some riddled with chalkbrood, and many not as pure as the purists might like - but they are variable and are worth selection from (whether or not they retain French, Dutch, Polish or whatever Amm genes).
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They are involved, they actively promote their imported bees and even give recommendations to independent queen breeders to follow their spectacular foresight in managing to buy good queens from Denmark etc.
Sorry. I don't think I made my point properly. What I meant was there are people in Bibba who think that you cannot source a queen from another part of the UK under any circumstances. I have heard them at it!
Yet there are parts of the UK where there are only hybrids or mongrels, plus a variety of different recently imported sub species. Most of the UK in fact.
If you want to set up a breeding group based on AMM, the only realistic alternative is to source a few good queens from further afield, ideally as local as possible. The idea of starting from local stock and selecting to improve is fine but you will never recreate AMM by doing this - although you can read articles in the Bibba magazine which tend to suggest this is possible.
The background bee population in N Ireland is generally total rubbish, swarmy often aggressive stock. In the 1970s the Department of Agriculture encouraged beekeepers to restock with Buckfast. This was the same time they were giving grants to farmers to rip out all the hedges and replace them with fences. 95% of local beekeepers now have mongrel stock which is not subjected to any form of selection or improvement. In fact the colonies which make queen cells the earliest are usually those which are used to make up nucs, ie the swarminess is actively selected for.
How would you start to breed AMM from that background.
I have no qualms at all about improving my stock by introducing the odd Galtee queen or Galtee origin queen which I graft from.
The difference in quality is really marked.
But the 200 miles from Tipperary to Belfast is obviously too much for some in Bibba!
Anyone know who got one of Andrews queens in Ireland, as I would love to make contact with them for some fresh genetics.
I see what you mean, my apologies.
Of course sourcing quality material from outside to provide a good starting point to a breeding effort is acceptable.
I think one of the most valuable contributions beekeepers make( that is, beekeepers who raise their own queens), especially since varroa and the demise of wild populations of bees sustaining themselves, is each virgin that mates with the local drones throws a net over the best genetics in the air at the time and preserves them in her spermethetica for years to come. It is up to us to identify the most advantageous genes and nurture them and expand their scope, and perhaps more importantly, identify the 'inconvenient' genes, those prone to excessive swarming or bad temper or low productivity and remove those from the picture. Whats most convenient for beekeepers isnt always where natural selection takes the bees.
Perhaps the most satisfying thing of all about beekeeping for me is the feeling that things are noticeably changing for the better over the years and it is achievable to make noticeable improvements over a beekeepers lifetime. The pity of it all is that it all seems to descend back to a mediocre status quo quite quickly once the man behind the job is gone. Its good to think that there are many capable hands to continue with Michael Mac's work as he takes more of a back seat.
Re: Colonsay reserve approved!
How many beekeeping priests do you know? I've forgotten his name, but he's a priest, and he looks almost always amused.
Kitta
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