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  1. #41
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    I think it is definitely more complicated to fix hygienic behaviour but it is a worthwhile long term goal.
    They have had some success in the US. Harbo and Harris and Marla Spivak would be some of the names to google.
    There are breeders in the US selling hygienic stock.
    The native Irish Honeybee Society has started a project to look for bees which deal better with mites and hygienic behaviour is going to be a big part of that. A funding application has been submitted from Galway University to develop this work but no word back yet about whether it has been a successful application. Fingers crossed.
    In an ideal world we would like to be selecting for more resistant stock from within the existing population. Apparently this hygienic trait is present in all be races to a greater or lesser extent.
    But anyway, back to the choice of books as the thread is going off at a tangent! (again)

  2. #42
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post
    Hi Jon,
    I think they are additive gosh you have some big words in there
    What seem to be the case is that they are all difficult to fix in a bee population unless you are buying in hygienic queens every other year
    Unlike say decent behaviour
    Wouldn't surprise me if there was epistasis operating too! (pause for Chewing the Fat chin finger wiggling video clip ... oooOOOooo!)

    Temper and hygienic behaviour are probably similar traits genetically. Both are part environmental, part genetic, in that they need the right conditions to trigger the effect. Once you have that, select and you make good progress. Both are unlikely to be due to the effect of a single gene and are probably controlled by a limited number of genes.

  3. #43
    Senior Member Mellifera Crofter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Poly Hive View Post
    Worker: 3 days an egg, ...
    PH
    Phew! Thanks PH - at least I now know that I knew my 'table of threes' all along and I'm sure Steven as well.
    Kitta

  4. #44

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    Well chaps even I can produce well behaved bees but if someone on here has bred hygienic ones then hats off to them
    I think Swarming by Snelgrove is a good choice it has all the practical control methods and is concise

  5. #45
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellifera Crofter View Post
    Phew! Thanks PH - at least I now know that I knew my 'table of threes' all along and I'm sure Steven as well.
    Kitta
    At the risk of igniting WW3, I was expecting the 'threes' to be worker timings:

    3 days egg
    6 days open
    12 days capped (all with some variation of course)

    so a steady state colony (a rarity in my apiary) should show a 1:2:4 ratio of the three types. Variations from it allow you to read the recent history of the colony.

    That's what we teach our beginners. Are we wrong?

    Quote Originally Posted by Poly Hive View Post
    Worker: 3 days an egg, 5 days moulting, 13 days sealed. 21 days total
    As it takes a day to do the final moult after the cell is sealed then that should be 6+1=7 days moulting? However what we see easily and therefore what really matters is the 3+6+12.

    G.
    Last edited by gavin; 04-11-2013 at 07:59 AM. Reason: clarity

  6. #46
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    3 days egg
    6 days open
    12 days capped (all with some variation of course)
    That is the version I am familiar with as well

  7. #47
    Senior Member Mellifera Crofter's Avatar
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    Thanks Gavin and Jon. That's a better explanation for the term 'Table of threes'. It's like looking at the same scene through different windows, but the one gives a clearer view. You also mentioned the ratio in an answer to a question about an exam question, '- In a brood nest at its peak size, what are the proportion of eggs to larvae to sealed brood?':

    Quote Originally Posted by gavin View Post
    ... Well, the times in the various stages are: 3:6:12 days, so 1:2:4 in a colony at full pelt. ...
    Kitta

  8. #48
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellifera Crofter View Post
    Thanks Gavin and Jon. That's a better explanation for the term 'Table of threes'. It's like looking at the same scene through different windows, but the one gives a clearer view. You also mentioned the ratio in an answer to a question about an exam question, '- In a brood nest at its peak size, what are the proportion of eggs to larvae to sealed brood?':

    Kitta
    Glad that I've been consistent! Not sure if there really is a term 'table of threes' but PH's reply wasn't just not clear, it was wrong. It is important to get them right if you are going to make management decisions based on timing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Poly Hive View Post
    Worker: 3 days an egg, 5 days moulting, 13 days sealed. 21 days total

    Drone: 3 days an egg, 8 days moulting, 13 days sealed. 24 days total

    Queen: 3 days an egg, 5- days moulting, 8 days sealed. 16 days total.

    Average figures subject to temperatures. Taken from memory and the Beekeeping Encyclopedia.

    Without this info reading a colony is unlikely.

    Some may remember the americanised bee fiasco in the border states when Africanised queens were found to emerge at 15.5 days. Several millions down the proverbial.
    PH
    The queen times are the standard ones for egg-open brood-sealed brood. The worker times are not right for the same stages and are even more wrong for egg-larva-pupa.

    The business about queens emerging in 15.5 days applies to European honeybees as well.

  9. #49

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    So I'm wrong then that worker brood gets sealed on day 8 Gavin?! Which would give a 5 day larval stage? I confess I can't say where I got it from - probably Hooper? And I've never questioned it...till now! Holding myself up for ridicule here but you don't ask etc..

    Or has the confusion just arisen from PH's use of the term "moulting"?
    Last edited by drumgerry; 04-11-2013 at 11:14 AM.

  10. #50

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    Whoops I think I've got it now. The 5 day thing just relates to the sealed/unsealed state and not to the stage of development of the larva. Doh! Homer Simpson moment there - sorry!

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