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Thread: Book thread/forum section

  1. #101
    Member Wmfd's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by prakel View Post
    For beginners.

    They then go on to say that with experience you can introduce pure bloodlines; this, after previously stating that they believed the native bee was "probably extinct as a pure breed".

    Sound like good practical beekeepers to me.
    Isn't the irony that it seems it is often the other way around, with beginners buying in pure breeds?

    I didn't really understand how the experienced beekeeper would use pure breeds, given they say you won't be able to maintain them (unless they expect those beekeepers to keep buying in)?

    I found it a good practical book, which was precisely what I liked about it.

  2. #102
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wmfd View Post
    Isn't the irony that it seems it is often the other way around, with beginners buying in pure breeds?

    I didn't really understand how the experienced beekeeper would use pure breeds, given they say you won't be able to maintain them (unless they expect those beekeepers to keep buying in)?

    I found it a good practical book, which was precisely what I liked about it.
    I've never read the full book so am at DroneRanger's mercy here! But yes, various snippets which I've seen posted over the years do give a good impression of the authors.

    I reckon that the majority of beekeepers probably do use what's local to them rather than imports -with a few just 'trying' the odd one occassionally. When queens are purchased by the casual beekeeper I reckon that the outcome is probably similar to what i see around here where there's a general mishmash of 'stuff' that's been imported and then through almost immediate neglect allowed to blend in to the background population -whatever that may be at this late stage.

    Maybe the authors saw the introduction of other stock as a way of upgrading an already mongrelized population.

    But of course, buying in any queens whether they come from the mediterranean or a couple of miles down the road can be a gamble if we don't do some research first. As Frank Pellett wrote, in another old book:

    There are entirely too many indifferent queen breeders for the good of the industry.

    Practical Queen-Rearing by F.C. Pellett

  3. #103

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    A R Cumming , M.A. Secretary of Inverness Beekeepers Association
    Margaret Logan was Beekeeping Lecturer at North of Scotland Agricultural College
    According to the preface
    Don't know any more than that

    The book describes what was happening in 1950 and what was considered good advice at the time
    You always have to read the books in context with the time they were written

    The general advice being given is buy your bees locally
    Don't imagine planting a few garden plants will make much difference
    Almost all bees in Scotland are hybridised to greater or lesser extent
    If you buy in queens of a race or type you will be doing so forever to maintain that
    The strain is more important than the breed

    I suppose Brother Adam would have been traveling Europe (and beyond) looking for good strains of "pure bred" bees for his breeding experiments

    Pellet was a queen breeder and also predicted that resistance to AFB was going to be bred into bees. and that AFB was in the very near future going to be eliminated
    Think that was in the 1950's but would have to look that up it was in Les Baileys "Infectious Diseases of the Honeybee"

    His comments on Queen Breeders might have been true of breeders at that time though

    This is Pellet's description of black bees (took a long while to type just as he wrote it)

    "One of the worst objections to the blacks is excitable nature. When the hive is opened they run nervously , and often boil out over the top in a most disconcerting manner.
    The queens are difficult to find because of the fact that instead of remaining quietly on the comb attending to business , they run with the workers and often hide. They do not gather as much surplus on the average as Italians, under American conditions, are more inclined to be cross, and are more susceptible to brood diseases.
    It is a difficult matter to save an apiary of black bees, once they become infected with European foul- brood. In comparison with Italians the latter have proven so much better that there is a very general tendency to replace the blacks with Italians and in many limited neighborhoods where beekeeping is scientifically followed, the blacks have disappeared."

    He then goes on to describe Cyprian bees, Syrians ,Carniolans, Caucasians, Banat bees, Tunisian bees, Egyptians and his favorite Italians

    The rest of the book includes things like mini mating nucs and lots of queen rearing methods and equipment well worth a read

    Here it's the same though
    You need to read Pellet's comments in the context of a man who although he knew full well that the strain was more important than the race he still couldn't help himself from having a rant and tagging on "scientific" at the end to add weight
    I was reading a Scientific bee site (American) just a couple of days ago with similar rants fueled by third hand information and prejudice
    Last edited by The Drone Ranger; 14-11-2015 at 03:11 PM. Reason: I'm tempted to delete this post as it is too long

  4. #104
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post
    His comments on Queen Breeders might have been true of breeders at that time though

    This is Pellet's description of black bees (took a long while to type just as he wrote it)

    "One of the worst objections to the blacks is excitable nature. When the hive is opened they run nervously , and often boil out over the top in a most disconcerting manner.
    The queens are difficult to find because of the fact that instead of remaining quietly on the comb attending to business , they run with the workers and often hide. They do not gather as much surplus on the average as Italians, under American conditions, are more inclined to be cross, and are more susceptible to brood diseases.
    It is a difficult matter to save an apiary of black bees, once they become infected with European foul- brood. In comparison with Italians the latter have proven so much better that there is a very general tendency to replace the blacks with Italians and in many limited neighborhoods where beekeeping is scientifically followed, the blacks have disappeared."

    He then goes on to describe Cyprian bees, Syrians ,Carniolans, Caucasians, Banat bees, Tunisian bees, Egyptians and his favorite Italians

    The rest of the book includes things like mini mating nucs and lots of queen rearing methods and equipment well worth a read

    Here it's the same though
    You need to read Pellet's comments in the context of a man who although he knew full well that the strain was more important than the race he still couldn't help himself from having a rant and tagging on "scientific" at the end to add weight
    I was reading a Scientific bee site (American) just a couple of days ago with similar rants fueled by third hand information and prejudice
    Not sure that Pellett's comment about the varying quality of queen breeders is limited to his time. There are still plenty that fall into the churn-them-out-grab-the-money brigade with little regard to quality.

    I don't want to dwell too much on his comments re the 'black bees' because none of us are aware beyond the literature what the state of the bees in the US was in the nineteenth and early twentieth centuries.

    I notice that your quote dosen't include Pelletts previous lines where he speculates on the amount of Spanish blood in the black bee mix that they had, nor do you include his quote from Sladen about the British amm being unsurpassed amongst pure races in our climate. So yes, the context does matter.

    Pellett was the author of some superb books. His study of US honey plants is an impressive tome, while it's not the best reference for someone on the jurassic coast I can still appreciate the quality of workmanship which went into it.

    A little known fact about F.C.Pellett is that it was at his request that the Dadants modified their hive (by shortening it):

    In the meantime the Dadants had carried on with the big hives which they had found so satisfactory in the early years of their experiments. About 1913 the author first met C. P. Dadant at a beekeepers' convention. Being a strong advocate of the Langstroth hive which he used in two stories, he had an animated discussion with Dadant over the hive question. Dadant had fought too many battles over this question to be aggressive. He stated his preference and the reasons therefor and refused to argue with the newcomer. The result was a new examination of his methods on the part of this writer. Finally becoming interested in the large brood chamber, but disliking some features of the old style Dadant hive, a special order was made for seventy-five hives the length of the Langstroth hive but with the deep frame and the one and one-half inch spacing which theDadants used. The result was so pleasing that another convert was made, and so much enthusiasm was manifested that the Dadants decided to modify their old hive and offer it for sale. Thus, in 1920, the Modified Dadant hive was offered to the public. While making concessions to the later developments in the way of minor details, it still retained the principles for which the family had fought for three generations.

    History of American Beekeeping by F.C. Pellett

    http://chestofbooks.com/animals/bees/History/index.html
    Last edited by prakel; 14-11-2015 at 04:27 PM.

  5. #105

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    Hi Prakel

    I wasn't trying to misrepresent Pellet I could only type that bit and I thought that was long enough

    The thing is that all these books were written by people

    Often they had their own opinions which may well have been wrong but they influenced and still do influence a lot of peoples thinking

    You get a real insight into what was happening/ important at the time

    Bandwagons come and go in beekeeping

    Modern websites are often more full of bunk than all the old books put together

  6. #106
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post
    Pellet was a queen breeder and also predicted that resistance to AFB was going to be bred into bees. and that AFB was in the very near future going to be eliminated
    Think that was in the 1950's but would have to look that up it was in Les Baileys "Infectious Diseases of the Honeybee"
    A short insight here from a bee breeder who had extensive hands on experience of the subject:

    We have more experience with disease-resistant bees now (DR), but some people still don't understand the principles involved. DR bees are not immune to AFB. This section is written to straighten out these misconceptions.

    To review, breeding bees resistant to AFB has been progressing since the late 1930's when it was first successfully accomplished by Park, Paddock and Pellett in Iowa. They were successful and within 5 years 95%of their test colonies were disease free (see 1976 Hive and the Honeybee, p175).

    Breeding Super Bees by Steve Taber, 1987

  7. #107

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    Well Prakel
    "They were successful and within 5 years 95%of their test colonies were disease free"

    The common sense question to ask then is where are they?

  8. #108
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    THE HIVE AND THE HONEY BEE

    My last post quoted Taber who referenced the 1976 edition of Dadants Hive & The Honey bee.

    As this is the book thread it's a good opportunity to mention that the new, revised 2015 edition is now out:

    http://www.dadant.com/catalog/m00010...ee-new-edition
    Last edited by prakel; 14-11-2015 at 05:36 PM.

  9. #109
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post
    Hi Prakel

    I wasn't trying to misrepresent Pellet I could only type that bit and I thought that was long enough
    I didn't think for one minute that you were trying to .

    Just adding some background to the Pellett story.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post
    Well Prakel
    "They were successful and within 5 years 95%of their test colonies were disease free"

    The common sense question to ask then is where are they?
    Same place as the varroa resistant bees?..... Seriously, Taber does go on with the history of DR (!) since the initial studies. Lots of interesting stuff not only in that particular chapter, but the book as a whole. Beyond me why so many people promote the Woodward queen rearing manual and hardly anyone (apart from mbc) ever mentions Taber.

    Anyway, afb must be a hard target when legislation demands destruction of all infested colonies in some countries and 'treatment' in others. We're certainly not going to find resistance in the UK.
    Last edited by prakel; 14-11-2015 at 06:48 PM.

  10. #110
    Senior Member Greengage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post
    Hi Greengage

    Attachment 2459

    Attachment 2460

    Hope this works and is readable

    You could get a copy from Abe books
    http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/Se...et+Logan&sts=t
    There will be other sellers

    Checked and I think the Moir Library has a copy (SBA lending library)
    Chers tks for that.

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