Mating/laying Q = Mini-nuc < Nuc < Hive

**fatshark** · 25-06-2013, 03:32 PM

Why do mini-nucs result in consistently faster mating and laying queens? Than 5 frame nucs and full hives that is. A colleague mentioned this recently and speculated is was due to a pheromone - presumably present in hives with a complement of old workers and/or drones, but absent in mini-nucs.

**gavin** · 25-06-2013, 07:03 PM

Good question. Clearly, the smaller the colony the more bees realise the urgency of the task of building by winter.

More bees: let's concentrate on laying in stores for now.

Less bees: help! We need more bees, and fast!

Might the occurrence of sealed brood correlate with delayed mating/laying? That would give your colleagues a reason for suspecting a pheromone effect, sealed brood pheromone perhaps.

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**Mellifera Crofter** · 25-06-2013, 07:05 PM

A ha! I've just been on a queen-rearing course on Colonsay (together with some very, very knowledgeable people form this forum). AA thinks it is due to the fact that they're a very, very small colony and therefore have a sense of urgency to get their new queen mated as soon as possible and increase their numbers.
Kitta

Snap

**fatshark** · 25-06-2013, 11:18 PM

Lots of anthropomorphising going on there! I suspect you're both right but there will be a chemical reason. It would be interesting to know whether a mini-nuc above a travel screen (for example) got the Q mated as fast - when exposed to the scent, but not contact, of all the bees below. If tonight's grafts take perhaps I'll investigate ...

**The Drone Ranger** · 25-06-2013, 11:32 PM

The cycle is slower overall though
If you make a split over a Snelgrove board 16 days later queen
Within 10 more days mated and laying say 26 days

Apidea need queen cell at 14 days into process
then 28 -35 days in mininuc
then several days introduction to a hive probably start to finish 50 days
Nearly twice as long

**fatshark** · 25-06-2013, 11:41 PM

Hi DR ... but I'm only considering emerging to laying, not the overall timing of the full introduction cycle (which I accept and agree is probably more efficient - if you have enough bees - in large(r) colonies). I have queens laying tonight (and probably yesterday going by the looks of things) that were grafted on the 2nd ... 23 days.

**The Drone Ranger** · 25-06-2013, 11:57 PM

You got me Fatshark
I was just being a bit cheeky

possible there are so few bees that the "let's kick the queen out on a mating flight" party wins every vote

**Jon** · 26-06-2013, 07:50 AM

The Snelgrove board suits the guy with a couple of colonies who just wants to requeen them, but if you want any volume of queens it has to be mini nucs. Some people I know swear by Snelgroves. If space in a small garden is limited the vertical split makes sense.

Best case scenario starting from the day of grafting would be virgin 12 days later, laying 10 days after that (optimistic), 10 more days to check for normal sealed worker brood, introduction and laying 4 days = 36 days.
I have taken them out from Apideas at 4 or 5 days and introduced them and got away with it but sometimes they will try and supersede if you do this so it is better to wait.

My first grafts were done on 8th June so might have a couple laying by the weekend.

**fatshark** · 26-06-2013, 08:14 AM

Like Jon I like to leave them in the mini-nuc to 'mature' a bit. I grafted again y'day so am cutting it a bit fine this time. An advantage of leaving them a bit longer is that there is a good population of young bees ready to accept the new cell.

I've also left a gap of 4-6 weeks and allowed the mini-nuc to raise a scrub queen before putting a new cell in. This works OK and means you don't have to fill the box again for a second round late in the season.

**gavin** · 26-06-2013, 08:22 AM

Originally Posted by fatshark

Lots of anthropomorphising going on there! I suspect you're both right but there will be a chemical reason.

I'd argue: there *could* be a chemical reason. There doesn't have to be. Bees seem to have a sense of the quantitative and it doesn't always involve a pheromone or scent. That scout assessing a potential new home - it estimates the volume of the cavity and very likely isn't using chemicals to do so. The forager knows the distance the trip took. The queen sees the size of the cell she could reverse into (OK, there could be a signal left by the workers but no-one talks about that). It seems like a very basic appreciation of the environment that all organisms possess: how many of my colleagues are there here? The cues used could be diverse. In a social animal 'there's not very many of us!' must be a potent trigger for a change in behaviour (nowt wrong with a spot of anthropomorphising!).