Large scale imports of bees into Scotland

[The Drone Ranger]

Hello, As a beginner to all this, I can only say that my son and I have been trying to get into beekeeping for two years. Experienced bee keepers are saying we should try and gets our Nucs/bees locally, but the local bees have taken a substantial hit. Understandably, local bee keepers want to re-establish their own hives before helping to set up novices. The lure of imported bees then becomes attractive.

Hi Bonita
Your situation is not unusual
The bees you get might not have to be imported
I don't know the local situation but I have found this initiative on the web
http://www.kelvinvalleyhoney.org.uk/Equipment.asp
They might help but I have my doubts

I don't know anything about these people but you can find them on the web
http://www.the-beeman.co.uk/open-for...ction-25-w.asp
Has anyone on the forum visited them or know about the company?

You are not far from Glasgow so hopefully someone will contact you to help
There are lists of local associations on SBA website
http://www.scottishbeekeepers.org.uk...ociations.aspx

[drumgerry]

I think that one of the keys to getting investment for a national breeding programme using the native bee is to get some serious bee breeders working on improving/developing breeding lines first so that you've an economically enticing beast to promote rather than a National Treasure to save from extinction.

I see it as being the other way round Prakel. Without the investment the breeding won't happen. Without a major change in our approach to the problem things will just go on as they always have done. That consists of enthusiasts investing their time and their own money and everything happening at a local level. BIBBA has promoted this approach and they think it's working. I disagree. I think the time for a local, piecemeal approach has come and gone.

And I don't see using native bees/AMM as some sort of preservation exercise. How can trying to make ourselves self-sufficient in bees make anything other than economic sense?

[Jon]

Bonita.
If you want to get into beekeeping buy the basic equipment, brood box, frames, floor and roof.
Set it up in a site where you may attract a swarm.
This is known as a bait box and there is loads of info about this on the internet
If you get a swarm and you are not happy with its behaviour you can requeen it later.
This year there will be a shortage of bees but later in the summer there should be plenty of local queens.

[Jon]

I think that one of the keys to getting investment for a national breeding programme using the native bee is to get some serious bee breeders working on improving/developing breeding lines first so that you've an economically enticing beast to promote rather than a National Treasure to save from extinction.

In Ireland we have the Galtee Bee Breeding group which has been doing bee improvement on a reasonable scale for over 20 years.
The bees are excellent, very docile and not too swarmy.
There would be at least 1000 colonies involved owned by members of the group.

Look at the protection the demonstrator is wearing

opening-up..jpg

One of the reasons for the creation of the Native Irish Honeybee society is the need to scale up - as the Galtee group cannot meet the demand for queens. At a meeting earlier on this month Michael Mac reckoned they could sell 4 or 5 times more queens than they can produce. They are completely sold out with queens prepaid for 2013. I ordered a dozen for some local beekeepers in January and they were basically booked out at that point.
There is a need to scale things up which is where NIHBS comes in as we need to get supply in line with demand.

[prakel]

drumgerry, this is the issue though, the main negotiations will undoubtedly involve the beefarmer's representatives who, I'd speculate, will aim to maintain the import option even if they don't use it every year themselves. They know better than anyone whether they can be self sufficient year on year with regards to successfully mating economically viable queens.

I can't see large scale funds being given to start breeding from scratch; you need something 'good' to offer to begin with. Something which the money people can see is not too far from being ready for mass breeding and distribution.

The mention of Bibba's apparent lack of progress (at least during their first fourty years) is something which I'm sure many people who are pro-imports are only too happy to take to the table.

Money talks which is perhaps one of the drivers behind the German efforts throughout last century not being devoted to their own native bee.

Your copmment

...That consists of enthusiasts investing their time and their own money and everything happening at a local level. BIBBA has promoted this approach and they think it's working. I disagree. I think the time for a local, piecemeal approach has come and gone.

is what I myself touched on with regard to it not being a job for local groups. So, who's going to do it? I don't know. 1st obstacle.

I'm certainly not against (in any way) your general ideas but I do think that there's a bit of a chicken and egg issue here with regard to whether you're likely to see the money at the start to improve the bee of further down the line to ramp up production once proven breeding lines have been stabilized.

Apologies for a bit of a disjointed post.

[Dark Bee]

[QUOTE=Jon;17787]In Ireland we have the Galtee Bee Breeding group which has been doing bee improvement on a reasonable scale for over 20 years.
The bees are excellent, very docile and not too swarmy.
There would be at least 1000 colonies involved owned by members of the group............................................. ..................................................

QUOTE]

Jon, the success of this group owes a great deal to Micheal Mac Giolla Coda. It was his foresight that initiated the movement to promote the native bee and his genius that brought the association to where it is today. It is inevitiable that a nation wide association would be formed to expand his work. I view as an endorsement of the success of his practices and policies, the abuse of those who (allegedly) favour the bee referred to as the Buckfast bee; both on their website and on another UK beekeeping forum. If a person cannot argue politely, then he has already lost the argument. Can there be any greater validation of a movements success than those opposed to it being only able to voice their opposition by being abusive?

[Jon]

I have been trying to avoid arguments with the Buckfast people and the importers even though some of them do spread disinformation about our native bee.
I think the best way to win people over is to show them that AMM is fit for purpose, ie positive campaigning - highlighting that it can be productive, gentle and not too swarmy.
Micheal Mac Giolla Coda should have a job in the diplomatic service as he is a shrewd operator and a good motivator.

To get back on topic about getting infrastructure in place, it is imperative that we move beyond what Prakel called the 'national treasure' mentality and into some more organised local queen rearing so that the queens are available to those who want AMM and those who do not want to import queens, with all the risks that entails.

[prakel]

Jon, just a thought/question. An organization such as the new Irish Bee Society which has already 200 members (as per your other thread on the subject) may well at some point (a couple of years down the road?) have funds available to hire a part time staff member afforded the job of breeding from the best lines that the association can develope nationwide. This could of course be done on a voluntary basis but the cash incentive would illimate lack of progress due to pressures on time etc. As a job, the breeder would be expected to put in the contracted hours -and account for them. Further, if for any reason the employee didn't work out you'd find it easier to remove him/her from the position than if it was a hard working volunteer giving their time and knowledge freely.

Where would the breeding stock come from? How about local groups pooling their best queens on a regional level and then sending the best from those to the central breeding station. Not my own idea but a hodge-podge of different plans and methods which I believe are already in use elsewhere although I can't necessarily remember the exact sources.

[Jon]

Hi prakel
I don't think you need to employ a dedicated queen rearer.
My personal vision would be to work as a kind of collective but maybe that is just old hippie nonsense.
With regard to the Belfast group which is still really in its infancy, we have about 40 members who own from 1-30 apideas.
A lot of the members are relative beginners.
In total there are well over 100 apideas, maybe 150.
In theory that could produce 200+ mated queens in a season
The problem is establishing the market.
You need to be able to sell the queens when they are ready or get them into nucs with a view to selling the nucs.
My preference would be to overwinter nucs for spring supply.
The plan is to work out a payment structure for the participants in the programme, something like £25 per mated queen and £20 for a frame of brood and adhering bees.
depending upon who has a spare queen in an apidea or enough bees to make up a nuc or two, these could come from anyone.
Everyone who works should get some reward for their labour but noone is going to get rich on this.
I mentioned earlier that this year we are going to have a big shortage of bees for making up nucs due to heavy winter losses but in a better year that should not be a problem
The problem is establishing the market.
At the end of the summer I usually have a couple of dozen mated queens but all I get is sob stories from people who want one for nothing.
Some people cadge a queen then stick it in a nuc and sell it on for £120 to someone else.
Call me old fashioned but that is ripping the arse out of goodwill.
The Galtee group has it sussed as if you want a queen you pay for it six months in advance.
We maybe need to look at something like that in the future but it takes a while to get a reputation for producing quality queens.
I am wary of taking orders then failing to deliver. We need to get a bit more experience in that area.

Where would the breeding stock come from?

That's not a problem.
There are a considerable number of beekeepers in Ireland with good stock.
The Galtee group for a start and at least half a dozen others where you could get a good queen to graft from.
I always have several queens of my own I would be happy to graft from.

We are planning to develop this with two other neighbouring associations and some of them have good stock.

PS. NIHBS managed to get 3500 Euro from a Government Dept already.

[prakel]

Some people cadge a queen then stick it in a nuc and sell it on for £120 to someone else.
Call me old fashioned but that is ripping the arse out of goodwill.

Jon, this is something that I touched on at the top of this thread regarding whether proof of genuine losses would be required before restocking funding was allocated to individuals.

P.S. Nice post (#59) which doesn't require further specific comment from me!