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Thread: Why did the SBA vote to keep Neonics?

  1. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by worm View Post
    At the recent AGM the SBA voted,by 34 to 31, not to support a ban on neonics.(conditions apply)

    Given the mounting evidence of harm and the known neurological effects of this highly lucrative product on insect life worldwide, and the reprecussions up to birds and down to worms, how on earth can you support them?

    Try and defend yourselves here.
    Given the mounting evidence, how did Eric manage to present such a badly worded case that less than 50% of the barely 10% of the present membership agreed that the SBA should throw its whole weight behind a motion to ban neonicotinoids?

    Is the case that weak? Do most Beekeepers believe there are more pressing issues? Are Beekeepers not experiencing the media narrative of bee Armageddon? Is there a wider belief that hanging undoubted problems facing pollinating insects, generally, solely on neonicotinoids, might mask wider issues and that having the associations "crying wolf", just backs us into a corner? Is there some other reasonable reason rather than we all work for Bayer?

    Given the scientific credentials of those, in a position where that matters, within the national beekeeping associations who see no reason, currently, to lobby for a ban; might that not give pause for thought to those who would pin everything on these pesticides as to whether they're the root cause of problems that they like to make out?

    Evidently you're disappointed that Eric's motion didn't carry, but as a supporter of it might you not be better served trying to put forward the argument(s) as to why it should rather than go on to attack those who thought it shouldn't?

  2. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Neils View Post

    Given the scientific credentials of those, in a position where that matters, within the national beekeeping associations who see no reason, currently, to lobby for a ban; might that not give pause for thought to those who would pin everything on these pesticides as to whether they're the root cause of problems that they like to make out?

    Evidently you're disappointed that Eric's motion didn't carry, but as a supporter of it might you not be better served trying to put forward the argument(s) as to why it should rather than go on to attack those who thought it shouldn't?
    i'm sorry but you are addressing someone who is clearly a zealot. Logical arguments carry no weight. Evidence that disagrees with their view carries no weight.ANY opposition carries no weight. They have made their minds up period. Convincing others means you need to consider the opinions and views of others and address the issues others may have about your cause.

    By definition, zealots can not allow any suggestion of doubt as it undermines their belief system. So zealots prefer to hurl abuse or treat those who disagree as the spawn of the devil.

    Much easier , simpler and requires no original thought - which zealots are largely incapable of.

    I am NOT saying all those who act on behalf of the anti-neonics campaign are zealots. Most are not and hold their views based on research and factual evidence. But those who only post on one subject are effectively single issue people and by my definition zealots.

    (and in my view do their cause more harm than good : see the number banned or turfed out of forums due to their inability to abide by simple rules that 99% of other posters subscribe to. That kind of behaviour is unacceptable to most normal people)

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by madasafish View Post
    i'm sorry but you are addressing someone who is clearly a zealot. Logical arguments carry no weight. Evidence that disagrees with their view carries no weight.ANY opposition carries no weight. They have made their minds up period. Convincing others means you need to consider the opinions and views of others and address the issues others may have about your cause.

    By definition, zealots can not allow any suggestion of doubt as it undermines their belief system. So zealots prefer to hurl abuse or treat those who disagree as the spawn of the devil.

    Much easier , simpler and requires no original thought - which zealots are largely incapable of.

    I am NOT saying all those who act on behalf of the anti-neonics campaign are zealots. Most are not and hold their views based on research and factual evidence. But those who only post on one subject are effectively single issue people and by my definition zealots.

    (and in my view do their cause more harm than good : see the number banned or turfed out of forums due to their inability to abide by simple rules that 99% of other posters subscribe to. That kind of behaviour is unacceptable to most normal people)
    That is me you're talking about.
    The reason I come across as 'single issue' on this site is that I'm not just interested in bees, but in the healthy life of the planet,in the whole.
    If we allow free reign to global companies to maximise their profits regardless of the longer term consequenses,it will be a right mess.Something like the banks.
    You're right,I'm not very interested in vicarage garden party discussions on the best type of hive etc. but I do care for our balance of natural systems and how we could improve things.
    If this is not a suitable place to air such views I'm sorry,very sorry.

  4. #24
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    Discussions on the best type of hive do have a direct relevance to the wellbeing of our managed bees. Likewise discussions re feeding, varroa control, acarine. Discussions about winter losses provide solace for those of us who admit to having lost the odd colony, knowing we are not alone in being less-than-perfect beekeepers or alternatively that it's just been one of those years. Sorry you feel they're 'vicarage garden party', whatever that means. There are umpteen and one organisations which exist solely to campaign for and against this, that or the other environmental issue. Why do you want to turn the SBA into just another? It is so, so much more than that.

    [pedantic note: it's free rein, not reign]

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by worm View Post
    That is me you're talking about.
    The reason I come across as 'single issue' on this site is that I'm not just interested in bees, but in the healthy life of the planet,in the whole.
    If we allow free reign to global companies to maximise their profits regardless of the longer term consequenses,it will be a right mess.Something like the banks.
    You're right,I'm not very interested in vicarage garden party discussions on the best type of hive etc. but I do care for our balance of natural systems and how we could improve things.
    If this is not a suitable place to air such views I'm sorry,very sorry.
    Why try and turn a beekeeping organisation into an anti capitalist/big business one? There are plenty of those already, just put your weight into their campaign.

    Trying to pin all the ills of today's business world on bees and/or beekeeping just takes focus away from the real problems faced by bees and pollinating insects generally.

    If we ignore the anti business element, what do you suppose will replace neonics and why are they a better alternative? Path of least resistance, in lieu of a properly defined path as to what happens next, the assumption has to e that we see the wide scale reintroduction of the pesticides that neonics largely replaced. We know they're excellent at killing bees, and much else besides. So why are they a better alternative?

  6. #26

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    Hi Worm

    I understand your concern for the environment and I bet most people on the forum would agree that the less pesticides used the better
    For beekeepers and the SBA to call for a ban on Neonic pesticides they would have to be convinced that this particular group of compounds are killing or harming their bees
    There has been other candidates in the frame in the past -- remember the anti GM crops campaign in the SBA Magazine
    I can see in Beecraft and other publications the slow movement toward the precautionary ban principle
    There is work going on as you have pointed out which will make the case or not for bans
    There has been a sort of scatter gun approach which blames everything under the sun for colony collapse disorder, which I think you would agree is not a factor in UK beekeeping
    A few years ago we were being led to believe CCD was inevitable and a collapse in UK beekeeping would follow
    That's why I and others I'm sure have their own precautionary principle which is wait and see what research shows.
    Perhaps the SBA should be campaigning on general ecology and farming methods but that's not it's primary function.
    If we continually predict the demise of all beekeeping in the UK and are proven wrong time and again who will be listening when the real big bad wolf comes calling
    I think we are all on the same side really and so far only about 60 SBA members have even taken a position on the neonics subject

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trog View Post
    Discussions on the best type of hive do have a direct relevance to the wellbeing of our managed bees. Likewise discussions re feeding, varroa control, acarine. Discussions about winter losses provide solace for those of us who admit to having lost the odd colony, knowing we are not alone in being less-than-perfect beekeepers or alternatively that it's just been one of those years. Sorry you feel they're 'vicarage garden party', whatever that means. There are umpteen and one organisations which exist solely to campaign for and against this, that or the other environmental issue. Why do you want to turn the SBA into just another? It is so, so much more than that.

    [pedantic note: it's free rein, not reign]
    Thankyou for the grammar instruction.
    And I accept that the minutiae of your craft is/are important stuff. Nevertheless, I would say that the topics I choose to raise on this forum are probabably of greater importance.
    When it comes to international debates about whether or not the predominant pesticide on the planet should continue to be used ad libitum, it is serious stuff. The SBA voting against a moratorium is not insignificant.

    PS. I do try to look after all my bees
    Last edited by worm (JTF3); 06-04-2013 at 11:28 PM.

  8. #28

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    Quote Originally Posted by Neils View Post
    Why try and turn a beekeeping organisation into an anti capitalist/big business one? There are plenty of those already, just put your weight into their campaign.

    Trying to pin all the ills of today's business world on bees and/or beekeeping just takes focus away from the real problems faced by bees and pollinating insects generally.

    If we ignore the anti business element, what do you suppose will replace neonics and why are they a better alternative? Path of least resistance, in lieu of a properly defined path as to what happens next, the assumption has to e that we see the wide scale reintroduction of the pesticides that neonics largely replaced. We know they're excellent at killing bees, and much else besides. So why are they a better alternative?
    Nellie, you know full-well that global companies now often have more influence on the world than individual governments. Who is going to influence their actions?

    If the charitable organisations most affected by their excesses demure from objecting to their behaviour, who else will?

    To say farmers will only do worse stuff after a ban is defeatist and wrong. Any farmer worth his salt knows how to produce a good crop without this imposed blanket treatment.

  9. #29

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    Quote Originally Posted by worm View Post
    And I accept that the minutiae of your craft is/are important stuff. Nevertheless, I would say that the topics I choose to raise on this forum are probabably of greater importance.
    I disagree wholeheartedly. I'd far rather read anything Trog has to say on beekeeping on Mull (or elsewhere) than any of the mostly argumentative guff you are producing in your second, much lamented stint on this forum. Or any of the equally unpleasant stuff you spewed up in your first stint.

  10. #30

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    Nice!
    And I thought there was a fresh ethos of going for the ball not the player.....
    Last edited by worm (JTF3); 06-04-2013 at 11:57 PM.

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