Pesticide combination affects bees' ability to learn - comments anyone?

[gavin]

LOL!

'But you don't have a womb! Where's the foetus going to gestate - are you going to keep it in a box?!!'

Now I'm confused. Presumably you edited the Monty Python to show Peter Cook instead and Eric 'quoted' the one you first thought of?' I enjoyed them both anyway ....

Top marks to Drumgerry for squeezing in a Chewing the Fat clip but Jon's is one of the very best video links we've had, up there with Ivor Cutler spotting anomalies whilst counting fruit (even though I say so myself).

I can see something of the reason for the bee foetus theory - that 9 months the human one takes bridges the gap nicely between bee health in May and bee armageddon in Jan or after. And beekeepers are only human after all. That 9 month gap has always been a bit of an embarassment to the anti-neonic campaigners, but at last we have a decent explanation. Plus we shouldn't discard any possible way of implicating neonics in the honeybee difficulties that surface as the winter turns into spring. To that end let's be sure that we don't mention in a public place:

- the complete lack of anything wrong with bees while they forage on neonic-treated rape
- huge experience elsewhere of coumaphos being safe (as normally used) for bees
- the entirely predictable loss of weakened colonies that didn't have their mites controlled properly
- the entirely predictable loss of small colonies overwintering after a difficult season when fewer winter bees were raised and overwintering stores were low
- the lowish losses, usually to do with queen failure, noted by those who do treat Varroa well and, when required, who both feed to stimulate late brood raising and lodge decent levels of winter stores

One out of seven for me. One out of 14 for DR. How are your losses in OSR-free Dumbartonshire, Eric?

[The Drone Ranger]

It might be worth plotting colony losses (where data is available) just to see what the position is
If there is a problem, and there could be, it should be fairly evident
That's where I would start anyway

[Jimbo]

DR the SBA did and found a East/West difference which was promptly put down by some as evidence that neonic's on the rape areas caused the higher colony losses in the East,
however none of the usual differences were eliminated eg weather, varroa free areas in the West, more predominent Amm colonies in the West etc. I am certain you could add a few other factors to this list.
Could even be the fact that in the West the beekeepers have salt and vinegar on their chips where as the beekeepers in the East have salt and sauce so by using acetic acid in the West they might have less disease in their colonies. (It's a good a reason as any other for the differences!)

[gavin]

There were some naive speculations on the back of that in the press. The whole business is so predictable (and indeed was predicted).

Other major factors to add to Jimbo's list:

- differences in forage (esp after early July in arable areas vs more mixed areas)
- differences in standards of Varroa control and general bee management from beekeeper to beekeeper

The really disappointing thing is that the papers already published on the subject of colony losses say very clearly that losses are often multifactorial, and that the big ones influencing colony loss are Varroa, Varroa's viruses, autumn colony strength, and queen age. There is no suitable data on these in the Scottish east-west studies.

The other thing is the way the volunteers were collected. You just can't drum up local support in a few areas across Scotland, each local area with its own predominant beekeeping ethos and standards, then claim that geographical trends mean something other than plain geographical trends. I have a lot more faith in Magnus and Alison' data which comes from a stratified random sample (but not much faith in their interpretation of the correlations).

You should get the Scottish Beekeeper, DR, there has been quite a lot of this sort of stuff in it over the last year. And compensation and insurance too, all for the price of one super frame cut into 5 pieces of cut comb.

[The Drone Ranger]

I probably should get the magazine by rejoining SBA
I get Beecraft and the online version
Regards the survey its always tricky if you have a snapshot of only one year I suppose

[gavin]

I probably should get the magazine by rejoining SBA
I get Beecraft and the online version
Regards the survey its always tricky if you have a snapshot of only one year I suppose

You know it makes sense!

To be fair, the SBA's own survey data did show an east-west difference across several years. OK, they weren't great years weather-wise in the east, but there is something else causing the difference. My money would be on differing forage availability later in the year and different standards, perhaps Varroa control. Now the survey run for Dundee University is showing the same thing over two winters, both of them after poor summers for the bees in the east.

[The Drone Ranger]

How was the sample constructed it wouldn't have been the whole SBA

Wonder what the underlying reason is I doubt it is to do with chemicals but managing bees on rape has its difficulties namely the rapid expansion then sudden disappearance of the crop.
That drives swarming and if they do swarm it's at a time when there will soon be a shortage of forage
Might not be so severe down your way Gavin not sure if there is a follow on crop
I hardly ever lose a hive in Winter, and I'm right on the edge of rape fields all around me-- every year

[gavin]

The Magnus and Alison (and, once, me) surveys were a random sample of a certain number within distinct geographical areas to make something like 15% of the membership. The surveys were designed to be compatible with the international project COLOSS reporting colony losses in a standardised way.

The C Connolly/ John D surveys were as many enthusiastic volunteers as they could find for a project that was known to the membership, through emails and in some places rousing talks by CC, to be hunting for evidence that OSR exposure *together with chemical treatments for Varroa* were causing winter colony deaths. More contributers seem to have come from some areas - such as Fife and Ayrshire.

[gavin]

How was the sample constructed it wouldn't have been the whole SBA

Wonder what the underlying reason is I doubt it is to do with chemicals but managing bees on rape has its difficulties namely the rapid expansion then sudden disappearance of the crop.
That drives swarming and if they do swarm it's at a time when there will soon be a shortage of forage
Might not be so severe down your way Gavin not sure if there is a follow on crop
I hardly ever lose a hive in Winter, and I'm right on the edge of rape fields all around me-- every year

Swarming after rape is common with mine too. After rape there can be some hawthorn, maybe clover, and in damp years lime. Perhaps some sycamores still flowering.

I know that you treat Varroa very effectively, and I'll guess that you feed well enough later in the summer or early autumn. Or perhaps you have Himalayan balsam.

[The Drone Ranger]

There is balsam but I make sure they are well fed in September


One chap I know with 20+ years experience was losing most of his bees every year
Eventually a few years ago instead of coming back to me for more bees he started treating and feeding
Last time I saw him (last year)he was giving bees to his neighbour who was just getting started
When I say he wasn't treating, he was, but only Apistan and only if he spotted damaged bees
He's a reformed character now and he gets more honey/hive than I do lol!