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Thread: Scotsman article today on some work by Dr. Connolly.

  1. #21

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    The big point Bayer made about their termite treatment,despite what you call 'massive quantities pumped in' is that,actually the main kill-off was from secondary pathogens,as you well know!

  2. #22
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Yes but they were pumping it into the ground in massive quantities to get the long term efficiency.
    Bees do well on oil seed rape the world over.
    That is what beekeepers report and that is why the commercial guys seek out OSR sites to move their bees to.
    These guys are not stupid and they have influence.
    If they were losing bees to some chemical on oil seed rape they would be first in line calling for a ban.

    I could list at least half a dozen factors which are more likely to be in play this winter.
    I'll give you an example. I checked the association apiary site this afternoon and one of the nucs was dead with the comb chewed to blazes by a mouse. This was a decent nuc 2 weeks ago. Maybe the rodent was supercharged through consuming grain treated with Imidacloprid!
    Last edited by Jon; 26-02-2013 at 10:43 PM.

  3. #23

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Yes but they were pumping it into the ground in massive quantities to get the long term efficiency.
    Bees do well on oil seed rape the world over.
    That is what beekeepers report and that is why the commercial guys seek out OSR sites to move their bees to.
    These guys are not stupid and they have influence.
    If they were losing bees to some chemical on oil seed rape they would be first in line calling for a ban.
    So that's your last line of defence. Winter neonic-treated OSR shows no immediate harm, in Scotland/N.I.

    I hope you're right about that.

    Really, we should not be getting rid of insects without a bloody good reason.

  4. #24
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Look John, I actually share your concerns about the amount of pesticides swishing about in the environment and I do get your oft made point about pre-treatment which may not even be necessary, but I think the current campaign/obsession around neonicotinoid pesticides is a complete red herring. There is far worse stuff out there which is still in widespread use. Endosulfans and Organophosphates for example. Sub lethal effects and synergistic effects are not exclusively confined to neonicotinoids. Don't lose the big picture.

  5. #25

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Look John, I actually share your concerns about the amount of pesticides swishing about in the environment and I do get your oft made point about pre-treatment which may not even be necessary, but I think the current campaign/obsession around neonicotinoid pesticides is a complete red herring. There is far worse stuff out there which is still in widespread use. Endosulfans and Organophosphates for example. Sub lethal effects and synergistic effects are not exclusively confined to neonicotinoids. Don't lose the big picture.

    I have the big picture in mind.

    I think it's what I've been doing for years.

    What you're agenda is ,is a bit of a mystery,

    You tell us your own gardening is organic,you support sustainable charities in central america.

    Why on earth you defend Bayer et al with their bloody wicked killer drugs makes me question your integrity, or gullibility.

    You seem to justify your stance as being dispassionate, scientific etc but you always come down on supporting an increasingly dodgy position.

  6. #26
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    I have put the last 20 years of my life into developing our project in Mexico so I don't need any lectures from the bonkers conspiracy theorists who may question my integrity with their talk of Masons, secret logos and all the rest of it.
    There is no agenda. That is yet another juvenile conspiracy theory.
    I don't defend Bayer, Syngenta or their ilk. Like I said, I think the neonic ban campaign is a red herring with regard to bee health. There is worse stuff out there. I am the least gullible person you might ever meet.
    Gullible to me is a child like belief in chem trails, ley lines, secret societies, hidden symbols in logos, sleepers working their way up beekeeper organizations, need I go on!

  7. #27

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    I have put the last 20 years of my life into developing our project in Mexico so I don't need any lectures from the bonkers conspiracy theorists who may question my integrity with their talk of Masons, secret logos and all the rest of it.
    There is no agenda. That is yet another juvenile conspiracy theory.
    I don't defend Bayer, Syngenta or their ilk. Like I said, I think the neonic ban campaign is a red herring with regard to bee health. There is worse stuff out there. I am the least gullible person you might ever meet.
    Gullible to me is a child like belief in chem trails, ley lines, secret societies, hidden symbols in logos, sleepers working their way up beekeeper organizations, need I go on!
    No, you don't need to go on.

    Sustainable,healthy food production doesn't, in the long term, benefit from these stop-gap chemical fixes for systems that ignore millions of years of building ecosystem balance.

    Yes, if us farmers want a crop that has a reasonable yield, we have to tip things in our favour.

    But the hubris that we can dispense with nature and still prosper is a bad mistake.....


    (My tally is 40 years, FWIW)
    Last edited by Johnthefarmer; 27-02-2013 at 12:55 AM.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Right John - so ditch the obsession with neonicotinoid pesticides and look at the best way to reduce overall pesticide usage in a market realistic way especially in the main food producing areas of the world such as parts of the US.
    My personal philosophy is that it is best for everyone to start to do the best they can within their own situation. I appreciate that you do that yourself but you can't impose your will on other people. I always urge people to look at themselves first before ranting about the perceived evils in the world. I don't have 160 acres like you have. I have a suburban garden 100 foot long and an allotment 3 miles from where I live. My garden is totally given over to fruit trees and fruit bushes and has not seen a chemical treatment since we moved here 13 years ago. I get a decent crop most years.

    I make my own wine, I grow a lot of my own food, I don't drive or own a car, I started up a bee breeding group which takes up maybe 15 -20 hours a week of my time unpaid all summer, my day job is looking for funding and providing support to a project for young people with a learning disability in Mexico. Like I said, that has been a 20 year commitment. Sometimes I get sick to the back teeth of the innuendo and slurs put about by certain people, many of whom appear to be not the full shilling if you pardon the pun. People who live in a fantasy world of intrigue and imaginary masonic handshakes. You have no idea how far off the mark you are with all this bull about being an apologist for Bayer.

  9. #29

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    Good Answer.

    But, yes ,perhaps I do have a bit of an obsession with neonicotinoids.

    They are now,and increasingly, the most widely used pesticides in the world. They are marketed as being 'bee friendly',' mammal friendly' , 'non-persistent' etc. and have been sponsored by many compromised agencies.

    All their claims are unravelling,but they still have their defenders.

    Their effects on non-target species are sufficiently subtle,but nonetheless deadly, that they can go uncorrelated by many observers.


    P.S.
    Sometimes two steps and a couple of months is enough to confuse all but the smartypants.You have to be bloody sharp to contend with global companies. Here's to the smartypants! I do not claim to be one myself, but I know one or two.....
    Last edited by Johnthefarmer; 27-02-2013 at 02:53 AM.

  10. #30
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Johnthefarmer View Post
    What you're agenda is ,is a bit of a mystery,

    You tell us your own gardening is organic,you support sustainable charities in central america.

    Why on earth you defend Bayer et al with their bloody wicked killer drugs makes me question your integrity, or gullibility.

    You seem to justify your stance as being dispassionate, scientific etc but you always come down on supporting an increasingly dodgy position.
    After a short discussion behind the scenes, we've decided to end John's contributions to this forum. We've been too tolerant of the bad-mouthing of others and it is time to get back to bee and beekeeping discussions.

    Gavin (on behalf of the SBAi Team)

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