New BIBBA website

[The Drone Ranger]

Nope
what I am saying, is that the bees found throughout almost every area of the country are hybrids and makes them the native bees
AMM are confined to small enclaves
What preceded the Carniolan in Germany? Is that their native bee ?

And yes Steve I will be a hybrid I think

Hey! I might be the last of the Picts who knows for sure
Hope Peter is wrong he thinks I'm a troll (are they even real ?)

[Jon]

Nope
what I am saying, is that the bees found throughout almost every area of the country are hybrids and makes them the native bees

DR. No it doesn't. Native with regard to flora and fauna has a strict definition.
By your definition a baby Kangaroo born in Edinburgh zoo is a Scottish native.

This is from an article I am working on at the moment and this definition of 'native' is the one used by archaeologists, ecologists, botanists and suchlike.

“The term native is closely defined. To be a true Irish native, we need fossil evidence radio-carbon dated to the period before the arrival of people, between the end of the last ice age, around 11,500 years ago, and the earliest reliable date for the arrival of people on the island, around 9,800 years ago”

This strict definition of ‘native’ is possible for many of our plants, but is more of a problem for the so-called native animals as the early sites for bones are not free of indications of people. Many native plants and animals can never pass this stringent native test as they have left no fossil evidence.

[The Drone Ranger]

[QUOTE=Peter;22233]

One thing to bear in mind is that subsidies for OSR will not last forever and in my opinion nor should they.

With the high demand for oil I doubt that subsidies enter into the equation.

>I also don't think the getting of big honey crops is a simple function of colony size. It's one of the biggest criticisms levelled at AMM by some. That the queens produce small colonies which will only ever get modest honey crops for you. My experience is that big colonies don't always get lots of honey and it's often a smaller colony that wins out in pounds produced.

Absolutely right. It was Bro Adam who pushed the idea that to get large amounts of honey you needed large colonies - but I rather think that he had ulterior motives (why else would he have pronounced A.m.m. extinct?). Until you have seen the amount of honey that a small colony of A.m.m. can produce then you could be forgiven for any incredulity. So often I see a colony in a single brood box with 8-10 full supers above; it never fails to amaze.

Beats me why anyone with even half a brain keeps knocking our native bees? Trolls?

There's no denying the logic in that last statement
Can anyone top 10 full supers ??

There all fixed now
I have removed the offending line and offer this reply instead
many apologies for my inappropriate use of "native"
You are probably more Scottish than me Jon
I was only born here and so were my grandparents on both sides

[drumgerry]

I don't think it's at all fair to be describing DR as a troll and I'd have thought we didn't stoop to such insults on here. He's a long time and valued member of the SBAI community. I don't see it as a problem that he disagrees with some of us on the question of AMM. An argument becomes the stronger for dealing with any challenge put to it.

[Rosie]

What preceded the Carniolan in Germany? Is that their native bee ?

Apis mellifera mellifera preceded the carniolan and Germany and it seems that, despite all the effort they have gone to to eliminate it much of the current stock contains significant amounts of AMM genetics.

I have learned a lot form the German experience:

1) Once you have mongrel bees it's extremely difficult and probably impossible to get back to one of the original constituent races.

2) You can, however, produce a bee that has all the outward appearance and behavioural traits of the race yo are trying to recreate. You can then improve its performance by further selection.

3) The bee you create can be compatible with pure samples (presumably you need a minimum amount of the right genetic material in the original mongrels).

4) When you have an anarchic system with defensive and badly adapted bees the only way out of the mess is to get organised. The Germans saw this around 70 years ago and took action but we are still squabbling about it.

If 3) is true then the BIBBA members who are starting with what they have in an area rather than parachuting in new blood do have a justified case provided they see their policy as the first stage in increasing the purity of the bees in their area.

Steve

[The Drone Ranger]

I don't think it's at all fair to be describing DR as a troll

thanks Drumgerry you are welcome at my cave anytime

[The Drone Ranger]

Apis mellifera mellifera preceded the carniolan and Germany and it seems that, despite all the effort they have gone to to eliminate it much of the current stock contains significant amounts of AMM genetics.

I have learned a lot form the German experience:

1) Once you have mongrel bees it's extremely difficult and probably impossible to get back to one of the original constituent races.

2) You can, however, produce a bee that has all the outward appearance and behavioural traits of the race yo are trying to recreate. You can then improve its performance by further selection.

3) The bee you create can be compatible with pure samples (presumably you need a minimum amount of the right genetic material in the original mongrels).

4) When you have an anarchic system with defensive and badly adapted bees the only way out of the mess is to get organised. The Germans saw this around 70 years ago and took action but we are still squabbling about it.

If 3) is true then the BIBBA members who are starting with what they have in an area rather than parachuting in new blood do have a justified case provided they see their policy as the first stage in increasing the purity of the bees in their area.

Steve

Can we call them AMM+
what would be a reasonable wing scan result before they could be included in the definition ?

[Jon]

I don't think it's at all fair to be describing DR as a troll and I'd have thought we didn't stoop to such insults on here. He's a long time and valued member of the SBAI community. I don't see it as a problem that he disagrees with some of us on the question of AMM. An argument becomes the stronger for dealing with any challenge put to it.

I'll second that.
We need to tolerate those who ride the range and listen to prog rock!

You are probably more Scottish than me Jon

I come from a long line of Scottish planters but my passport is Irish.
Here's hoping I am not a hybrid.
Might need to lie down in a darkened room if the aggression levels start to rise.

[Rosie]

Can we call them AMM+
what would be a reasonable wing scan result before they could be included in the definition ?

Why change the term we use after all these years? I'm happy with "near native" but you can call them what you like (within reason).

I have come across a definition of near native recently but can't remember the source or the exact definition. Whatever definition is used it will be academic as the ordinary beekeeper will have difficulty in determining the exact genetic make-up of his bees in any case. If bees behave like natives and you have good cause to believe they have more native genetics (such as well over 50% in the DrawWing box) than anything else that would be good enough for me. If they eat 40 lbs of stores over the winter though I would say they were beyond redemption but that's just my opinion.

DR, wing scans are not everything as the German experience has shown, especially if the population has already been analysed and selected on the strength of them, but can be useful for the detection of bad matings.

If I find the definition I will come back but perhaps someone else here will beat me to it.

Steve

[Trog]

Can we call them AMM+
what would be a reasonable wing scan result before they could be included in the definition ?

Oh, I like that - very 21st century and avoids all the baggage associated with 'native'. My bees are definitely AMM+.

My horse would probably say 'native is all very well, but ...'. She's a Welsh Cob. Her ancestors were Welsh Mountain Ponies. Fine beasties but small; not up to taking the weight of a Welsh farmer wanting to ride round his hill-farm, pulling the family cart, plus family, to chapel, or ploughing a small field. I can't remember chapter and verse but I think they added to the pony a bit of Arab and a bit of Clydesdale and ended up with a fine beast of 14.2hh, hardy, strong but not cart-horsey, but with the intelligence and attitude of it's pony forebears.

So maybe AMM for the purists and AMM+ for the rest of us?

Signed, native Scot, if you can count my ancestors who came here with the Normans, who were originally Vikings ... though my mum's convinced she's a Pict ...