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Thread: What is the thinking behind the cubital index morphology ?

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    Default What is the thinking behind the cubital index morphology ?

    Hi everyone,

    Where does the cubital index / discoidal shift identification of Amm stem from ? Is there any genetic supporting evidence ?

    Cheers

    GG

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    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Hi GG

    It is based on wings from historic samples such as the York viking dig where lots of bee wings were found, and on wings from museum collections such as the Linnean collection. The CI and DS values on these wings are taken as a standard.

    There is also an isolated AMM population in Tasmania which originated in the UK and has had no contact with other bees for a couple of centuries.
    the wings of these ones correspond to classic AMM morphometric values.

    there is also a paper by Annette Jensen which is worth looking at

    DNA evidence is scant but there are likely to be some further publications this year on the subject from a PHD student at Leeds University.
    Last edited by Jon; 06-02-2013 at 01:24 PM.

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    Jon is correct the values are based on historic samples prior to any bees being imported into the UK. I have measured wings from colonies from the Tasmanian bees (Andrew Abrahams wrote an interesting article in the Scottish Beekeepers a few months ago about them). I have also measured the wings from Andrews bees on Colonsay which have had DNA analysis done on them.

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    Senior Member Mellifera Crofter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    ... there is also a paper by Annette Jensen which is worth looking at ...
    What does 'introgress' mean, Jon? Wikipedia tells me it is the gene flow from one specie to another - but then I don't understand why the authors say that the bees on that Danish Island where Amm is protected by law is the 'most introgressed':

    The most introgressed population was found on the Danish Island of Lęsų, which is the last remaining native Danish population of A. m. mellifera
    I only read the introduction - so sorry about my lazy person's way of getting an answer.

    Kitta

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    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    It's when you have some genetic material from one sub species of bee in a population of another sub species.
    Different sub species of bee have characteristic 'markers' in their DNA which are unique to that particular sub species.
    For example you could find evidence of ligustica DNA in a population of AMM or Carnica which would mean that at some point there had been interbreeding between the two races.
    On the Danish island there are a number of beekeepers who keep Buckfast which ensures a lose lose situation for both camps as the bees will interbreed.

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    "DNA evidence is scant but there are likely to be some further publications this year on the subject from a PHD student at Leeds University"

    Excellent. Its an interesting subject.

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    For information. I have sent a large number of samples for DNA analysis to Catherine in Leeds from Scottish colonies that had good wing morphometry results. This was not part of BIBBA project discovery but a request for further samples

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    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    This map shows some of the bees sampled in the Coop funded project.
    These results show the result of wing morphometry, not DNA markers, and it should be stressed that the jury is still out as to how results like these will correlate with DNA when results become available.

    Two of the 3 samples from NI are mine. although they put the circle over Derry instead of Belfast for some reason. Jimbo, that number 22 in the Rosneath area must be something to do with you!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    Two of the 3 samples from NI are mine. although they put the circle over Derry instead of Belfast for some reason.
    That's nothing. The coordinator of the EU proposal that has just gone in (not bees) made a map of the participant's organisations and we were put somewhere in S Yorkshire!

    Interesting papers to come.

    G.

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    Senior Member Mellifera Crofter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    ... On the Danish island there are a number of beekeepers who keep Buckfast which ensures a lose lose situation for both camps as the bees will interbreed.
    Thanks Jon - so I understood the word correctly, but not the situation on that island.
    Kitta

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