Page 3 of 4 FirstFirst 1234 LastLast
Results 21 to 30 of 31

Thread: Draw-wing help please

  1. #21

    Default

    point taken Peter but they still make practice subjects I guess

    Spring would be the best time before any drifting and when all the bees are sure to belong

  2. #22

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post
    point taken Peter but they still make practice subjects I guess

    Spring would be the best time before any drifting and when all the bees are sure to belong
    Hmmm. So what about bees that drifted in the previous autumn. And there is no drifting in the spring? I think not.

    Taking them from the centre of the brood nest is the only way to be sure. Give the comb a gentle shake to remove the older bees and then take your sample from those that remain. Why do all the morphometry work if you cannot be sure that the bees came from that queen?

    Best wishes

    Peter
    Peter Edwards

  3. #23
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Belfast, N. Ireland
    Posts
    5,122
    Blog Entries
    94

    Default

    Peter.
    If you take a sample from the floor and take a sample from the brood nest you will find there is a pretty good correlation.
    I have also found that a colony produces a similar scattergram if sampled several times over a period of years irrespective of any seasonal drifting.
    For several years now the Bibba magazine has been full of well intentioned articles about the accuracy of sampling techniques, but the elephant in the room is whether there is actually a good correlation between wing pattern and underlying DNA. If not, the arguments about sampling from the floor or from the brood nest are not that relevant.
    Cart before the horse.

    Wing venation will indicate a hybrid fairly clearly but it may not tell you much about whether the colony tested is pure race especially if you have been sampling wings over a period of years and using that information as part of the selection process. It is quite conceivable that you could get a scattergram with all the points in the correct quadrant which turns out to have mixed genetics.

    What does produce very inaccurate results is sampling too soon after a colony has been requeened. Even after 3 months you still have bees from the previous queen present.
    Last edited by Jon; 22-10-2013 at 08:38 PM.

  4. #24

    Default

    Could be wrong but I think winter bees are laid purposefully by the queen
    Any foragers or flying bees from this year will be dead by next spring (on the floor right enough)
    That's why September on is so important laying wise
    Drifting also depends on flow because empty handed bees are unwelcome when the turn up at the wrong door

  5. #25
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Mar 2012
    Location
    West Wales, Gorllewin Cymru
    Posts
    709

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post
    Drifting also depends on flow because empty handed bees are unwelcome when the turn up at the wrong door
    I'm not sure how true that is.
    Certainly bees bringing forage will mostly be very welcome, but even with nothing to offer I think most healthy bees will get assimilated if they arrive with a non aggressive demeanor.

  6. #26

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by mbc View Post
    I'm not sure how true that is.
    Certainly bees bringing forage will mostly be very welcome, but even with nothing to offer I think most healthy bees will get assimilated if they arrive with a non aggressive demeanor.
    I'll be testing the theory at all the bring a bottle parties this new year

  7. #27
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Belfast, N. Ireland
    Posts
    5,122
    Blog Entries
    94

    Default

    Make sure it's not a bottle of Buckfast.
    Last edited by Jon; 22-10-2013 at 10:56 PM.

  8. #28

    Default

    [QUOTE=Jon;22146]Peter.
    >Wing venation will indicate a hybrid fairly clearly but it may not tell you much about whether the colony tested is pure race especially if you have been sampling wings over a period of years and using that information as part of the selection process.

    >It is quite conceivable that you could get a scattergram with all the points in the correct quadrant which turns out to have mixed genetics.

    Seems to me that the first statement contradicts itself and that is re-inforced by the second.

    >the elephant in the room is whether there is actually a good correlation between wing pattern and underlying DNA.

    Yes - and this was something that the money from the Co-operative was supposed to resolve, but has so far failed to do - spectacularly!
    However, we should perhaps remember that the Galtee group started by using wing morphometry; I seem to recall that those schoolgirls analysed 21,000 wings - and more than earned the top prize for their work.
    Of course, none of us are claiming that wing morphometry is sufficient alone, but it served Galtee members well - and it would appear to have worked for me too.
    Peter Edwards

  9. #29

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by The Drone Ranger View Post

    >Spring would be the best time before any drifting and when all the bees are sure to belong
    Define spring!
    Peter Edwards

  10. #30
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
    Join Date
    Feb 2010
    Location
    Belfast, N. Ireland
    Posts
    5,122
    Blog Entries
    94

    Default

    [QUOTE=Peter;22152]
    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post

    Seems to me that the first statement contradicts itself and that is re-inforced by the second.
    Not at all.
    Check out the Moritz paper!

    Once you start using wing morphometry as part of a bee breeding programme it starts to lose its value.
    Moritz recommends discarding it as a selection method or switching to a different set of morphometric variables after a few generations.
    This paper is critical to understanding wing morphometry limitations.
    The more it is used the less predictive it becomes.
    As a snapshot of a population of bees which have never been selected, it should be quite useful.

    However, we should perhaps remember that the Galtee group started by using wing morphometry
    The wing morphometry survey started about 5 or 6 years ago and the Galtee breeding programme has been going more than 20 years.
    DNA microsatellite analysis is getting cheaper every year so this is going to make the wing morphometry redundant in the long run anyway.
    Last edited by Jon; 22-10-2013 at 11:36 PM.

Bookmarks

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •