We're the bad guys - again!

[prakel]

An interesting report by John Kefuss on the thinking behind his project and the 'World Varroa Challenge':

...To incite maximum participation by beekeepers and scientists, one cent (in euros) was paid for every varroa mite that was found dead or alive according to the maxim “Put your money where your mouth is”. A provisional budget of 100 cents was reserved to cover the costs of paying for all mites found.

http://www.apinews.com/es/noticias/i...ponent&print=1

Once again, some notable success, built on the back of heavy losses and a very high level of experience based knowledge.

[Neils]

Well I went to a talk given by some "natural beekeepers" this evening. I did promise myself that I wouldn't get involved but in the end I couldn't just sit there. To be fair when they weren't talking guff about "conventional" beekeepers their talk was interesting, I don't agree with a lot of their assertions but what started out as a bit of a frosty back and forth did, in the end, turn into an interesting discussion. "That isn't true." to one of their statements probably wasn't going to be a good way to start. But from a start point of "Lots of chemicals, take all the honey and feed sugar, suppressing drones and cutting out queen cells" we managed to if not find a common ground then at least be civil to each other

I don't mind them wittering to each other on Biobees about what a bunch of so and sos we are but I object to being portrayed in that manner to a non beekeeping audience.

[Jimbo]

At our association meeting last week somebody brought a double page newspaper spread of the sun hive. There was a lot of interest and some new members were showing an interest in purchasing one. I did point out that the outer shell was made from a cow pat and that I thought it may not stand up too well to our cold west coast wet weather. I also said the clue was in the name of the hive which we don't get a lot of in our area.

[Mellifera Crofter]

... I suspect some of them are very pleasant people in everyday life but I am afraid on forums come across as deranged with very large chips on their shoulders.

Well I went to a talk given by some "natural beekeepers" this evening. ... To be fair when they weren't talking guff about "conventional" beekeepers their talk was interesting ...

Madasafish is right - they are nice people. Like Neil, I've been on a two-day course (in 2011) given by Phil and Heidi and really enjoyed it. I don't think they were 'anti' any other kind of beekeeping. I'd rather say they were pro bee-friendly beekeeping and that includes all sorts. The views they expressed are shared by many: take only surplus honey (yes - that's what most of us do anyway); no clipping (a lot of beekeepers don't clip); let them swarm (one of my favourite beekeepers in his 80s does that - but he is with his hives every day and can see what's going on); disturb as little as possible (we all try to do that); and so on. As far as I can remember Phil also talked about creating artificial swarms using a TBH and treating against varroa (I can't remember details about his views on varroa treatment). Most of these ideas were discussed by all - particularly the swarming issue. I think the only controversial part was when Heidi said her bees talk to her. Phil interpreted it as being aware of your bees' needs. I spoke to Phil privately about neonicotinoids, but I can't remember that either mentioned it as part of the course.

I liked them both. Nice level-headed people, but something goes amiss in print and interviews.

Kitta

[Neils]

Could be Kitta. I think there is more an element of seeing that something needs to be fixed in beekeeping so the perceived faults tend to get exaggerated. I don't think that this "them and us" attitude is helpful from either 'side' of the debate, but in keeping with the title if thread I was very much left feeling like we were the bad guys and what we do as Beekeepers was being horribly misrepresented to an audience of non Beekeepers.

There is actually a lot of common ground but it seems we're often more concerned with highlighting each other's perceived faults than concentrating on what we consider benefits of our management philosophies.

[Mellifera Crofter]

... I was very much left feeling like we were the bad guys and what we do as Beekeepers was being horribly misrepresented to an audience of non Beekeepers. ...

Yes, that's true, and very, very annoying.

[madasafish]

When you have different views of how to do things and a number of people on both sides have strongly held views, there is always going to be some conflict. When neither side has any leadership - like leadership in the political party sense where MPs are part of a Party but also hold independent views on items such as Gay marriage - the fringes, who tend to hold people with strongly held views, tend to dominate discussions.

Add in a very few individuals who are deeply unpleasant - judging by their public dissing of their opponents - and you have all the makings of a catfight.

[Johnthefarmer]

When you have different views of how to do things and a number of people on both sides have strongly held views, there is always going to be some conflict. When neither side has any leadership - like leadership in the political party sense where MPs are part of a Party but also hold independent views on items such as Gay marriage - the fringes, who tend to hold people with strongly held views, tend to dominate discussions.

Add in a very few individuals who are deeply unpleasant - judging by their public dissing of their opponents - and you have all the makings of a catfight.

Yes ,you're right, it has been very nice and civilised on here recently.

Almost too nice, and rather quiet.....or maybe that's just fine?

[Jon]

It is just fine!
Thing is John, some people cannot debate without losing control. Complete hotheads.

A couple of weeks ago on biobees forum I was debating with Phil Chandler the pros and cons of letting bees swarm freely when a couple of posters jumped in and accused me of being a troll, ie if you disagree you must be a troll, a shill or whatever. Phil Chandler was being perfectly civil, although we clearly hold different views, but the folk who jumped in aggressively just come across as being deranged. It is complete immaturity. I don't post on beekeeping forum but I read it every day and Doris went on there with exactly the same tactics as she used here and antagonised everyone in the same way with her talk of shills and conspiracies thrown at anyone who disagreed with her. She may well feel that she is right and the rest of the world is wrong but that is no excuse to behave badly.

Most people are sincere about the welfare of bees and beekeeping irrespective of whether they are 'natural' beekeepers of some other type of beekeeper. Personally, I see the natural vs conventional thing as a complete false dichotomy as you get PPB in both camps and/or stupid ideology from some people which leads to the unnecessary death of bee colonies. Not feeding syrup or not treating for varroa are two which spring to mind. The thing about conventional beekeepers 'taking all the honey' I have never met a beekeeper anywhere who did that. I have seen dozens of beginners who do the opposite and overfeed to the detriment of the colony.

This is a friendly forum with amiable well informed posters which makes it a pleasant place to hang out. There are top bar beekeepers and warre beekeepers here such as madasafish and Chris and noone has any problem at all with that. In fact it is an opportunity to look at a different way of doing things.
What rankles with some is that the ethos here is 'evidence based' so pet theories and pesticide rants will be challenged and the posters will be asked for evidence, which lest we forget is one of the tactics of a shill apparently.

[drumgerry]

For a while ( not a very long while admittedly!) I was posting on beekeepingforum and thought it might be possible to have an informed and reasonable discussion there. It became clear pretty quickly that so many people there are so entrenched that discussing things in a reasonable manner just wasn't/isn't possible. I've given up. Most of the interactions I've had on that forum have left a pretty foul aftertaste. I do try to keep reading it to see what the likes of Murray and Gavin have to say but even that's becoming less frequent. It amazes me that those guys hang around there the amount of dog's abuse they take sometimes.

I can honestly say that the atmosphere over here is like day compared to night. I think there are some strongly held opinions but thankfully we (generally) have not been infiltrated by the extremists some of whom think that blanketing every beekeeping forum known to man with their "opinions" will win the argument for them. I've come to the point that even if what they're saying is true I don't want to hear it any more. I immediately take a position in opposition to them.

For me it's about the bees and the beekeeping - first and last. For some it seems to be all about being a keyboard warrior. Thankfully not too many of those around SBAi and long may that continue!