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Thread: We're the bad guys - again!

  1. #21
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    I think DEFRA is obliged to give 'stakeholders' a voice in discussions.
    The same thing happens in NI as we have one large beekeeping organization the UBKA and a smaller more recently formed group the INIB and the smaller one has equal representation at this type of meeting.
    It can create friction especially over best practice with regard to management of bee health issues.

  2. #22
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    Did I see that she said 80% of stuff in a garden centre is designed to kill insects? She must have really odd garden centres round her way. Any I've been in, the percentage would be nearer 0.1%, unless she believes spades, forks, rakes, hoses, lawnmowers and the like are lethal. Oh, hang about, she uses a lawnmower? Why? A scythe is so much more environmentally friendly as, indeed, is a horse.

  3. #23
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    Remind me never to go to a garden centre in Sussex.

    I'd be more inclined to rail against a certain brand of condiments round these parts that flog honey in garden centres packaged to look home produced but with honey from everywhere but the UK.

  4. #24
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    davidheaf
    01/14/2013 04:13 PM

    An excellent article! Thanks Heidi and Jean.

    Someone on this blog claimed that beekeepers do not suppress swarming. They do and in two ways:
    1. The fool's way, namely cutting out queen cells week after week. I've not actually met anyone who does it but I've heard it is still done.
    2. The conventional way, namely making an artificial swarm or one or more splits.

    Splits and artificial swarms involving the transfer of at least one comb of brood promotes horizontal pathogen transmission. Horizontal transmission selects for pathogen virulence. Natural swarming involves vertical transmission which selects against pathogen virulence. I'd say, if conditions allow let bees swarm and catch the swarms.
    One of the responses to the article.

    There's so much talk of allowing the bees to do what's natural; letting them swarm. Then the great and the good promote the practice of catching those swarms. Totally missing the point that they themselves are now creating an artificial break in the natural behaviour of the bees which will already be (at the least) in the process of whittling down the possible nest sites which the scouts have identified -to use their own phrase 'suppressing' the bees natural behaviour.

    My point: Not even the evangelists can avoid interfering with the natural cycle -unless they only have colonies founded by swarms which chose to move into their hives...and, they never actually manipulate them in any manner at all. I wonder how many of these bee-huggers would be able to demonstrate the strength of their non interventionist beliefs by watching wasps totally decimate their colonies?

    ---------------------------------------------------------------------------
    I see nothing wrong with a more natural approach to beekeeping but there needs to be a balance -and as I suggested earlier, an understanding of what consequences our actions are going to have. The so called Bond/Live or Let Die approach to varroa is a good example of an idea which gets misunderstood. It's been shown to work by a few but without exception they've all been very experienced beekeepers; had lots of colonies to work with, and I believe, they've all suffered massive losses in the early years along with the financial punishment which accompanies such a gutsy approach. To imply that someone can start from beekeeping scratch and succeed without treating (especially in congested Britain) is disgraceful; damaging to the new beekeeper and any beekeeping neighbour.
    Last edited by prakel; 18-01-2013 at 01:46 AM.

  5. #25
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    The idea of a beginner with two of three hives going cold turkey re. varroa treatment is ridiculous yet that is what the more irresponsible proponents of 'natural' beekeeping suggest. I notice that Phil Chandler and a lot of the regulars on biobees.com have now moved away from their initial non treatment position several years ago which led to heavy or total losses. Fair play to them as a reluctance to ditch dogma in the face of clear evidence is not sensible.

    In the Bond experiment study by Ingemar Fries, which Prakel mentioned above, 150 colonies were left unattended on an island. Only 13 colonies were left after 6 years including 5 survivors from the original group.
    You might end up with some varroa tolerant stock then if you start with a huge number of colonies and can take a 92% hit.

    This thesis looks at some of the Bond Stuff.

    In 1999, an isolated honey bee population of 150 colonies was established on
    the southern tip of Gotland. The colonies came from a variety of locations
    around Sweden with different genetic backgrounds and were equally infested
    with an average of 50 Varroa mites in each colony. These colonies were to be
    part of a selection experiment to evaluate if the mites would eradicate an
    isolated population of bee colonies under natural Nordic conditions. For this
    purpose, the colonies were unmanaged, allowed to swarm freely and did not
    receive any mite control treatments. The experiment was called the “Bond
    Project, Live and Let Die” as some colonies would live and some would be let
    to die. The bees in this project have thus become known as the ‘Bond Bees’. A
    central hypothesis to the Bond Project was that beekeeping management
    strategies inhibited the natural development of mite resistance in two main
    ways:
    33
    1. Swarm prevention inhibits colony level vertical transmission pathways,
    increasing the emphasis on horizontal transmission pathways, which
    may result in the evolution of more virulent mites.
    2. Mite population control treatments remove the selective pressure of
    heavy mite infestation that would be required for natural selection to
    shape host adaptations towards tolerance and resistance.
    The Bond Bees have been continuously monitored for swarming, winter losses,
    mite infestation rates in the fall, and bee population size in the spring since the
    beginning of the project (Fries et al., 2003, 2006). Many of the bee colonies
    swarmed in the first two years of this project, but by the third year the
    increased mite infestation had weakened the colonies and the swarming rate
    decreased significantly (Fries et al., 2003).
    Within the first three years more than 80 % of the colonies in this project
    died (from 150 to 21 by 2002) due to the rapid build up of mite infestations
    rates well over the winter mortality threshold (Fries et al., 2003, 2006).
    Nevertheless, more than ten years post mite introduction, a small number of
    colonies still remain that have survived without mite control and have
    established themselves as a hybrid sub-population (Paper I).
    After the initial losses, the mite infestations rates in the fall decreased,
    winter mortality decreased and the incidence of swarming increased again as
    colonies were again strong enough to do so (Fries et al., 2006). Although
    swarming reduced the mite infestation in the mother colonies of this
    population, it was not enough to prevent the development of high mite levels in
    the fall. Therefore, it was concluded that the ability to swarm probably does not
    limit the mite population growth enough to fully explain the survival of the
    Bond Bees (Fries et al., 2003).
    Last edited by Jon; 18-01-2013 at 04:40 PM.

  6. #26

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    davidheaf
    01/14/2013 04:13 PM

    An excellent article! Thanks Heidi and Jean.

    Someone on this blog claimed that beekeepers do not suppress swarming. They do and in two ways:
    1. The fool's way, namely cutting out queen cells week after week. I've not actually met anyone who does it but I've heard it is still done.
    2. The conventional way, namely making an artificial swarm or one or more splits.

    Splits and artificial swarms involving the transfer of at least one comb of brood promotes horizontal pathogen transmission. Horizontal transmission selects for pathogen virulence. Natural swarming involves vertical transmission which selects against pathogen virulence. I'd say, if conditions allow let bees swarm and catch the swarms.

    [QUOTE=prakel;15397]One of the responses to the article.

    Can anyone translate into English please?

  7. #27
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Jon, thanks for the link to Barbara Locke's paper, it's one which I hadn't seen before, should make enjoyable reading. My original reference was aimed at people such as:

    John Kefuss [ http://www.survivorstockqueens.org/ scroll down this page for a pdf of an old ABJ article on him] a queen breeder of international repute who is also (and this is often overlooked) a scientist trained by Walter Rothenbuhler.

    Danny Weaver http://www.beeweaver.com/

    The numbers of colonies which these guys sacrificed are astounding -Weavers probably lost more colonies than any single British firm has ever owned. Yet people are foolish enough to believe they can start with one or two colonies and achieve the same results. Time to get real.

  8. #28
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Prakel, I have only skimmed through that thesis but it looks interesting. The reference list at the end is a good resource.
    I remember debating all this stuff with living legend Mike Bispham on the old bbka site about 4 years ago (before he even had bees) when he was telling all and sundry to just stop treating and just breed from survivors.
    The beginners think that if you start with two untreated colonies, one will survive and you breed from that.
    They are totally underestimating varroa and its vectored viruses.
    If you start with 1000 colonies and have pockets deep enough to lose about 950 of them, that could be a viable strategy.

  9. #29
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    Most of the proponents of natural beekeeping basically sell natural beekeeping as easy.

    Based on a meagre three years experience:

    It is not easy It requires an understanding of what your bees are doing based largely on external observation - as inspections are infrequent - if at all.

    When you have kept and observed bees for a couple of years you have a chance of observing and understanding. Before them the average person has no chance.

    Round here I am the only successful TBH user that I know of. The others who tried lost all their bees the first winter as the design as described - no bottom board - is too cold and damp for our windy wet conditions. I carried out back to back experiments with my first two hives in spring and summer and proved to my satisfaction the hive with a bottom board grew faster and stronger vs the one without.
    Ditto insulation.

    Mr Chandler has a PDF document on how to split colonies artificially.. Natural beekeeping. anyone?

    Edit

    I guess I am NOT a natural beekeeper.
    I do not wear gloves but use a jacket and veil.
    I don't clip queens but do try to artificially swarm and raise my own queens.
    I don't use OA but do treat with thymol..

    Forgive me Father for I have sinned...:-)
    Last edited by madasafish; 18-01-2013 at 03:32 PM.

  10. #30
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by madasafish View Post
    Forgive me Father for I have sinned...:-)
    Yeah, me too and I clip my queens as well so I will probably burn in an even hotter part of beekeeper hell.

    If bees can overwinter in those correx boxes of mine they should be able to overwinter in quite a variety of containers.
    I don't have the privelege of Heidi's balmy Sussex climate either.
    The only heat generated in Belfast is hot air from the flag protesters.
    A lot of bee box solutions, to use the current jargon, are massively over engineered and surely that is not so natural.
    There is a top bar hive advertised on the front page of biobees for £195.
    That seems very expensive to me.
    Those sun hives don't come cheap either.
    I have just bought 10 national brood boxes in the Thorne sale for £170.
    A 460 mm2 piece of correx with a hole in it makes an acceptable floor.
    The same with battens around it makes a crownboard and another half hours work with a Stanley knife and gaffer tape will make a nice roof.
    11 frames will set you back £6. The devil's foundation is an optional extra.

    Good observation combined with good deduction is the key to good beekeeping.
    I know people who open up colonies all the time over the summer but their bees swarm anyway as they don't know what they are looking at.
    Folk like this might as well leave them alone as the inspection is futile.

    You get considerably more sense re. 'natural' beekeeping on biobees as the advice is not usually predicated on that Rudolf Steiner mumbo jumbo which surrounds the sun hives.
    Last edited by Jon; 18-01-2013 at 04:41 PM.

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