Second trial replicating CCD with neonicotinoids.

[Jon]

Apparently the white clover in grass mixes is of little use to bees as it is the 'dutch' clover which is a longer stemmed variety than our native clover.
The grasses themselves are of no use.
Pasture is invariably the worst sort of habitat for bees, right sort of clover excepted.
The only forage they get is from the hedges bounding the fields.
Bees in suburban gardens generally do better than bees in the countryside these days.
I got 90lbs of honey from a colony in my garden this year and a lot of other beekeepers got nothing and had to feed.
the colonies I have elsewhere produced far less, maybe 25-30 lbs per colony.
I got about 200lbs of sycamore honey which came in over just a week when it was in flower at the end of May.

[Johnthefarmer]

Apparently the white clover in grass mixes is of little use to bees as it is the 'dutch' clover which is a longer stemmed variety than our native clover.
The grasses themselves are of no use.
Pasture is invariably the worst sort of habitat for bees, right sort of clover excepted.
The only forage they get is from the hedges bounding the fields.
Bees in suburban gardens generally do better than bees in the countryside these days.
I got 90lbs of honey from a colony in my garden this year and a lot of other beekeepers got nothing and had to feed.
the colonies I have elsewhere produced far less, maybe 25-30 lbs per colony.
I got about 200lbs of sycamore honey which came in over just a week when it was in flower at the end of May.

You're right, I think, about modern clover varieties being of no use to honeybees. We noticed a few years ago that bees on my farm clustered around small patches of wild white clover whilst there were acres of modern (hybrid ?) clover available. Since then I have chosen to sow more short- flowered strains.

As for pasture being crap for bees- depends what's in it. Much of our established pasture contains' eggs and bacon'( birds' foot trefoil), shepherds purse,several vetches etc.

I don't find that doing stuff that I do for bees, bumbles or birds is a problem for my core farming. Herbs and variety in the sward has to be of general health benefit to my stock.

[Jon]

I have seen mine working birds foot trefoil. never noticed them on vetches but they likely get a bit from it.
The major sources here in approximate chronological order are willow, dandelion, oil seed rape, sycamore, bramble, willowherb, clover, balsam and ivy. Beekeepers talk a lot about stuff like hawthorn and Lime trees but I never get anything significant from them.

[greengumbo]

I have seen mine working birds foot trefoil. never noticed them on vetches but they likely get a bit from it.
The major sources here in approximate chronological order are willow, dandelion, oil seed rape, sycamore, bramble, willowherb, clover, balsam and ivy. Beekeepers talk a lot about stuff like hawthorn and Lime trees but I never get anything significant from them.

The tawny coloured bumblebees love the purple vetch I have all over the hedgerows round here but I didnt see a single bee on it all summer. Mind you given this summer I didnt see many bees on anything !

[Johnthefarmer]

...yet curiously one of the huge advantages for beekeepers over the past couple of decades has been the spread of oil seed rape as a crop which helps spring build up, and the honey crop which comes off it even though we are told over and over again, often by non beekeepers, that it produces bee Armageddon. In the real world it is beneficial to our bees.

Jon, some time ago I argued that even though many beekeepers, even experienced ones, seemed happy for their bees to forage neonics-treated oil seed rape, maybe they were, understandably, unaware of the longer term damage their bees might be incurring.

This thread of discussion has been most active recently on the Beekeeping Forum.

Still, I thought I'd revert to this SBA thread to introduce this recent piece of research

I suggested, surmised, that as pregnant women ingesting neurotoxins harm their foetuses, maybe, probably, bee larvae might well be similarly compromised. You asked me for evidence.

Please tell me what you think of this http://www.plosone.org/article/info%...l.pone.0049472

I'll give you an hour to shoot it down in flames...

Or maybe Gavin, as you're currently online.

[gavin]

Nice of you to give us a full hour. What is this - some kind of TV game show?

The paper notes long term effects from feeding larvae:

- 0.4ng
- 0.04ng

but not from feeding them:

- 0.004ng
- 0.0004ng

So, is that relevant? What is the likely exposure from Ulster OSR fields? Who knows! One clue might be the concentration the larvae were fed.

100 ug/l
10 ug/l
1.0 ug/l
0.1 ug/l (ie ppb)

But do we know what the levels may be in the secretions adult bees feed to larvae? I would guess that they are low, but the facts are missing.

So - insecticides fed to larvae damage them. Is that the conclusion?

[Johnthefarmer]

Nice of you to give us a full hour. What is this - some kind of TV game show?

The paper notes long term effects from feeding larvae:

- 0.4ng
- 0.04ng

but not from feeding them:

- 0.004ng
- 0.0004ng

So, is that relevant? What is the likely exposure from Ulster OSR fields? Who knows! One clue might be the concentration the larvae were fed.

100 ug/l
10 ug/l
1.0 ug/l
0.1 ug/l (ie ppb)

But do we know what the levels may be in the secretions adult bees feed to larvae? I would guess that they are low, but the facts are missing.

So - insecticides fed to larvae damage them. Is that the conclusion?

Yes it is.

0.4 ng is, surely a very, very small amount.

All credit to them that they tested even smaller levels which showed no response.

In some ways the most interesting thing is that you, Gavin, instead of being interested in a possible ,newly demonstrated threat to bee health, immediately revert to the defence mode.

[gavin]

I find it interesting that you jump straight away to accusations that I am in defence mode.

0.4ng is indeed a very, very small amount. But the likely exposure to bees is a very, very, very small amount, isn't it? And what is the likely exposure to bee larvae?

Insecticides kill and damage bees. There, I said it. Happy now?

[Johnthefarmer]

I find it interesting that you jump straight away to accusations that I am in defence mode.

0.4ng is indeed a very, very small amount. But the likely exposure to bees is a very, very, very small amount, isn't it? And what is the likely exposure to bee larvae?

Insecticides kill and damage bees. There, I said it. Happy now?

This trial showed that 0.4ng/larva produced reduced olfactory function.

What evidence would convince you that neonics are bad for bees?

I am a farmer, and can see that a product which comes ready-prepared to defend my seedlings against anything which might stop them establishing might seem a good thing.

But when it turns out that it kills bumbles, affects honeybees over generations, 90% never enters my plants but leaches and persists in the soil and groundwater, even a farmer should question his decision- nevermind a beekeeper.

I agree that the difference between a very,very small amount and a very,very,very small amount is just possibly worth further investigation.

But, still, what do you need?

[Jon]

Working out how pesticides damage bees is based on field studies which look at field realistic doses of the toxins involved.
This study tipped way over field realistic doses of pesticide into cells containing larvae and noted some damage and developmental aberrations.
Anyone really surprised?
This is a totally unnatural situation and like several previous studies only manages to demonstrate that insecticide is toxic to insects and insect larvae especially at high dosage.
Poor design. Poor study.

The best bit was where it mentioned queens spawning. Wish I had one of those in my pond.