Second trial replicating CCD with neonicotinoids.

[Bumble]

Nevertheless, on the back of the Harvard study, this is a clear support for the case against neonicotinoids, is it not?

I believe the Harvard Study lost credibility mainly because the high doses administered was not field realistic.

This one seems to be the same. (I have read it, a couple of time.) Bees will go for an easy meal, and giving them feeders full of syrup laced with high doses of insecticide is not the same thing as bees foraging, taking nectar and pollen from flowers and collecting water from dew, pig urine or whatever else happens to suit them.

I'll stand by what I've said before - if UK bees are dying and colonies are collapsing because of what's being put on Oil Seed Rape seeds then why are beekeepers, both hobby and commercial, still taking their colonies to fields of the stuff?

I saw, this year, one apiary with hives inches away from a barbed wire fence, which was in turn inches away from rape plants. The very experienced beekeeper didn't seem to be either a fool or a bee murderer. He was happy, his bees were happy and actually gave him a good honey crop.

[Johnthefarmer]

He was happy, his bees were happy .

But it is ,I suggest, likely that, even with its low, 1 to 6 ppb, load of neonics the osr will leave the bees weaker and less robust- more suseptible to varroa etc. and needing increased support in the winter months.

The trial in question dealt, quite justifiably, with higher concentrations because direct spraying on to foraged crops would expose bees to well over the much-quoted 6 ppb, and this scenario they demonstrate produces ccd.

[Jon]

But it is ,I suggest, likely..

Can we trouble you for evidence?

[Johnthefarmer]

Can we trouble you for evidence?

no, not tonight. it's just a kinda, you know, gut feeling...

[Bumble]

But it is ,I suggest, likely that, even with its low, 1 to 6 ppb, load of neonics the osr will leave the bees weaker and less robust- more suseptible to varroa etc. and needing increased support in the winter months.

So you say.

The bees collect nectar and pollen from OSR. The pollen is turned into bees, the nectar into honey, much of which is harvested by the beekeeper once the OSR is finished. The bees then forage elsewhere for the rest of the season, and raise more bees.

How many of the bees that foraged on the OSR will be going into winter?

I find it hard to believe that you honestly think that an experienced beekeeper with many tens of hives is going to risk their livelihood by taking their colonies onto a crop that will kill their bees during the next winter.

The trial in question dealt, quite justifiably, with higher concentrations because direct spraying on to foraged crops would expose bees to well over the much-quoted 6 ppb, and this scenario they demonstrate produces ccd.

And how often, in UK, is the stuff that was tested in Japan sprayed directly onto crops and at a time of day when it won't dry, so it stays there long enough for the bees to drink it?

[Johnthefarmer]

And how often, in UK, is the stuff that was tested in Japan sprayed directly onto crops and at a time of day when it won't dry, so it stays there long enough for the bees to drink it?

You're quite right, the Japanese trial was on clothianidin and dinotefuran ,which they spray on rice paddies against stinkbug. This is rare in UK.

They hypothecate that the whole colony is disrupted in many different ways by the neurotoxins depending on dose level and duration. Immediate deaths, requiring bees to change jobs, weakened immune systems, queen stops laying, etc. eventually ccd.

[Jon]

Immediate deaths, requiring bees to change jobs, weakened immune systems

More than anything else that Japanese study shows straightforward poisoning due to the massive dosage applied.
There is no low dose used in this study. In the Harvard study when field realistic dosage was used there was no noticeable effect so they racked up the dosage in the corn syrup by a massive factor so that they could record the subsequent death of the bees and label it ccd.

Studies which demonstrate that insecticide kills insects at high concentrations tell us nothing we don't already know.

because direct spraying on to foraged crops would expose bees to well over the much-quoted 6 ppb

...which highlights one of the main advantages of applying insecticide via treated seeds as we do not get spray kills as used to be common in yesteryear.

[madasafish]

I read all this stuff and if true I should see fellow beekeepers who take bees to OSR and are near arable land suffering huge winter losses.

They don't.

So it's just more pointless lies from people who are incapable of posting on more than one subject .. but then decry monoculture in agriculture..!!

Take your own medicine first and stop posting rubbish.

[Jon]

Spraying neonicotinoid, soil injection, and planter dust from neonicotinoid can be a big problem but we don't have those issues in the UK thankfully.

If you look at the anti pesticide campaigns, the websites and the documentaries, virtually all the information is from the US and now this latest flawed study from Japan.
You would be hard pushed to make a UK based documentary showing major bee problems. Maybe Murray Mc Gregors 3-5 percent winter loss rate over several thousand colonies is a problem.
The same guys (or gals) lose their bees every winter - the ones who fail to do adequate varroa control.

[chris]

On the manufacturer's site, it is clearly stated

Dinotefuran is highly toxic to honeybees

So, what is there to make a fuss about ? The maker has done the necessary testing. The product is not authorized in France, and I suspect not in the UK though please correct me if I'm wrong.