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Thread: Last of the Apideas

  1. #11
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Second, I'm not actually that sure that there's a genuine need for April queens
    I used one to replace a drone layer at the end of March but an alternative would be to combine with another colony.

    Totally agree with the need to organise breeding programmes.
    If I were to sell AMM queens to beginners in Devon it would wreck the open mating of the people who concentrate on Buckfast.
    I suspect the main demand for early queens is from companies like Easy bee who bring in Carnica queens from Slovenia to make up nucs asap for new beekeepers who are not even aware of the issues surrounding bee breeding and imports.
    Some of these were being ordered by beginners in varroa free zones in Scotland - completely unaware of the implications of that.
    In general, the established beekeepers are selling nucs rather than buying them.

    The thing is, all the commercial guys use the lack of early local queens to justify imports so for that reason alone it would be good to have queens available to render that argument redundant.

  2. #12
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Yes, I don't think that we're actually disagreeing on anything here!

    My comment re the need for early queens wasn't really aimed at the requeening of drone layer colonies as I think that that is a different issue all together and in my oppinion the suitability of travelled queens for such an operation so early in the UK season is very questionable. So yes, local grown queens do have a place in these circumstances.

    I personally always try to winter queens as I've discussed elsewhere on this forum, normally in the mini-plus hives. But the main thinking is to use them to make up increase nucs at a time when there are plenty of drones in the pipeline; this way I can remove a queen and put the mating nuc straight back into use. With the the exception of trying to save a colony with a drone layer I can't see any value to myself in removing the wintered queen before I can hope to get another one mated from the mini-plus; this way they become long term colonies rather than a temporary queen take-away.

    Again, the commercial guys who are pushing the 'lack of local queens' arguement are as I suggest earlier, creating demand where there probably wouldn't be one otherwise. I understand the rush to get some bees when people are starting out (or lost all their colonies through the winter...) but I very much doubt that there's any true benefit in a newly made April nuc (with imported queen) over a June nuc with a local reared and proven queen. Of course, a wintered nuc with a local queen from the previous summer -the way nucs should be produced in my oppinion- will run rings around the lot of them.
    Last edited by prakel; 19-09-2012 at 06:30 PM.

  3. #13
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    Of course, a wintered nuc with a local queen from the previous summer -the way nucs should be produced in my opinion- will run rings around the lot of them.
    I have about 20 nucs with 2012 grafted queens of those as well as the queens in the apideas.
    I just ran out of bees for making up more nucs.

    At a comittee meeting in my BKA a fortnight ago we discussed the supply of nucs to beginners and hope to formalise the process.

    The very keen beekeepers could start with an overwintered nuc. in April.

    Another batch of nucs would be ready in early July headed by the first of the grafted queens from that season.
    We also proposed that the beginners keep their nucs in situ at the association apiary for a month before taking them home so they can get a bit of tuition and hands on experience under supervision.
    Hope to get this set up for next season.

    My comment re the need for early queens wasn't really aimed at the requeening of drone layer colonies as I think that that is a different issue all together and in my oppinion the suitability of travelled queens for such an operation so early in the UK season is very questionable.
    I agree with that as well. If you read beekeeping forum, many of the posters seem to buy in expensive queens at the drop of a hat and often have a £40 queen killed on introduction. That may well be operator error but some queens are removed from apideas and sold within a few days of starting to lay and these will often be rejected.
    Last edited by Jon; 19-09-2012 at 12:21 PM.

  4. #14
    Senior Member fatshark's Avatar
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    I tend to agree with prakel that these overwintered queens should be removed and immediately replaced with a ripe QC. This requires careful timing - there must be sufficient drones for mating and the mini-nuc cannot have expanded too much in the early Spring. I failed to achieve anything like this in 2012. No real surprise considering Spring didn't start until July

    With no drones about I didn't want to waste the workers or brood in one spare mini-nuc so strapped the frames Heath Robinson-style into some National frames and expanded one up into a full nuc. without too much trouble (having failed to get them to migrate up into a nuc box once).

    Next year I'm going to get some drone foundation into the hives early and hope I get the timing a little better. With care it might be possible to get three tiers of brood and stores and split a single Kieler three ways for queen mating ... perhaps that might mean I could avoid filling the mini-nucs with nurse bees early in the season (which usually ends up having to be done on cool, wet and windy Spring days ... with the inevitable temper tantrum from the donor hive).

    I suspect drone layers will be pretty frequent in early Spring 2013 and hope any I overwinter can be used as a quick fix for these hives rather than uniting and then splitting again post queen rearing. Spares will no doubt be welcomed by association members.

  5. #15
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    If you read beekeeping forum, many of the posters seem to buy in expensive queens at the drop of a hat and often have a £40 queen killed on introduction.
    Topic drift, but; £40= (approximately)
    1Xapidea (possibly even 2XKeiler),
    1Xbatch of cell cups,
    1pack of cup holders (although more and more I'm not bothering, just wax the cups onto a piece of wood which is then waxed to the cell bar),
    1pack of hair rollers.
    + the opportunity to raise a spare queen to replace the first one which we managed to lose trying to save a worthless/stressed/angry/old colony.

  6. #16
    Senior Member fatshark's Avatar
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    prakel, you forgot the value of the satisfaction obtained from raising your own queens = £priceless

  7. #17
    Senior Member Jon's Avatar
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    One problem I see with keeping mini nucs going non stop is lack of opportunity to give them a proper clean with acetic acid fumes and Virkon.
    I suppose it would not be rocket science to operate a rotation system but I like to get most of the stuff in a sealed box in march or April and fumigate with acetic acid for a week to get rid of nosema spores and other lurgies.
    Apideas being far too small are not a natural environment for a honey bee colony and I always imagine that any stress factor could send the nosema levels soaring.

  8. #18
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatshark View Post
    prakel, you forgot the value of the satisfaction obtained from raising your own queens = £priceless
    How did I manage to miss the most important one?! Definately the best part of beekeeping for me.

  9. #19
    Senior Member prakel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jon View Post
    One problem I see with keeping mini nucs going non stop is lack of opportunity to give them a proper clean with acetic acid fumes and Virkon.
    I suppose it would not be rocket science to operate a rotation system but I like to get most of the stuff in a sealed box in march or April and fumigate with acetic acid for a week to get rid of nosema spores and other lurgies.
    Apideas being far too small are not a natural environment for a honey bee colony and I always imagine that any stress factor could send the nosema levels soaring.
    Good points with regard to the smaller boxes (of which I have no experience worth mentioning) but I've not found any noticable problems with the mini-plus boxes* which if I remember right I worked out to have roughly the same comb area as a 4 comb BS; but in a better configuration to my way of thinking. With the m-p boxes it's easy enough to rotate out older comb as well as switching boxes to keep on top of things. Infact another upside of not pulling the queens too soon is surely a reduction in the inevitable stress which swapping out queens has got to cause.

    * edit: I should of course acknowledge here that I'm moving away from the mini-nuc ideal.

    I do plan on buying in some apideas or Keilers (still not decided on which) for next year to see how I get on with them although I don't think that I'll try to run them through winter simply because I'm going to be exceptionally busy during the dark months of '13/'14 and already know that I won't be able to give them the attention which they'd undoubtedly demand.
    Last edited by prakel; 21-09-2012 at 08:00 AM.

  10. #20
    Senior Member fatshark's Avatar
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    Default Last of the Apideas ...

    ... had unmated queens (or at least non-laying queens which gave every appearance of being virgins). Since the weather has now changed from "poor" to "utter rubbish" they were sacrificed and the workers and stores united with known queenright mini-nucs. Not particularly enjoyable in the pouring rain ... and regicide always makes me feel guilty.

    Time now to batten down the hatches and feed them up for the winter. I discovered yesterday my the hive stand loaded with poly nucs in the garden is high enough to squeeze Keilers underneath, so providing a bit more shelter. I'll have to wait for a cold snap or move them away for a week or so as most are in a field a few hundred yards away.

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