Poly hive musings.

[Calluna4u]

Sorry, C4U and Steve. My mistake. All the nucs have bee-squashing problems - but with the Paynes it is that inside wall rather than the tops of the frames. I forgot and lumped them all together! It's really difficult or almost impossible to get that inside wall cleared of bees when using a feeder or an extra brood box.

The Everynuc is almost ok.
Kitta

PS: Actually, I don't have a top feeder for the Paynes poly nuc, so I don't know how that fits - but there is a problem when adding the top brood box.
K

I think you are asking for the impossible Kitta. Everything is a compromise in one way or another, and any unit (I can think of several) that takes on board all the individualistic gripes and groans they get from beekeepers end up with a bit of kit that is not particularly practical.

If the unit has an internal feeder...which I like......and you want to add a second level onto it, either a further deep or a feeder, then this unit MUST meet the internal wall or you leave a space for the queen to end up in the feed space, and that is a PITA that far outweighs the need to be careful about clearing bees from the internal wall.

I still rather scratch my head at the need for an extra box (yes, I know it works, have experimented with it myself) as once its above 6 frames, and a congested 6 frames plus a feed covers 9 or 10, surely its less long term faffing about just to promote it into a full hive there and then? Also, they take syrup late into autumn from the internal feeder and its actually two maybe three fills of the side feeder and they have adequate stores for the whole winter, and by March will take from the syrup compartment again, so I also do not see a real need to feed fondant. Have never had to but maybe we overfeed in autumn?

However, clearing the bees off the internal wall is not a big issue and its actually a lovely simple bit of kit which tinkering with would diminish. BUT...it needs a thicker roof (not deeper, just thicker for more insulation, as the winter snow melt pattern shows.)

[The Drone Ranger]

I think Kitta is right most poly nucs have some pretty bad features
Often folk take matters into their own hands, modifying them, trying to fix issues
The Maisemore feeder on top is better than the Paynes slot which is very hard to clean
That also takes care of the thicker roof issue and condensation issues as well
They are not perfect just better
The disadvantage is you can't just look in and see through the inner cover what the bees are up to




You seldom if ever hear someone say "I bought a Smith hive or a National hive and had to add bits" (or chop them off)

[Calluna4u]

I think Kitta is right most poly nucs have some pretty bad features
Often folk take matters into their own hands, modifying them, trying to fix issues



The Maisemore feeder on top is better than the Paynes slot which is very hard to clean
That also takes care of the thicker roof issue and condensation issues as well

I think most such 'issues' are largely imaginary or at the very most a reflection of the individuals personal 'bees in bonnets'. Apart from the roof thickness I cannot think of one thing I would change about the Paynes (or others I don't use for that matter) that would not simply bring further, and often greater complications. Like I said before, everything is a compromise, and these compromises are seen by some as solutions and by others as problems. (Positive or negative mindset.) They are only a problem if you let them be or want them to be. Everyone wanting their own personal favourite is the reason we have the most fragmented and expensive bee appliance market in the world, and it only gets worse.

Most of the poly nucs (apart from ones with lots of bits to lose) are excellent bits of kit and delightfully simple. They have transformed nucleus production in this country in a way wooden ones never could without more work clagging on insulation than the effort is worth. There is a reason they have become popular when wooden ones did not. They work.

Cleaning the slot difficult? We just run along both sides with a hive tool or a long knife to slice off any comb they draw there (maybe one in 5 or 10 will do this) and run a wide top bar with the lug cut off down one end, draw it across the slot, and just wheech the detritus out up the other end. Do it a couple of times and all is well. 20 seconds? Most don't need cleaning at all...and if they do once they are empty nip off any comb bits as above and just turn it upside down.

Yes, the slot is a bit narrow for really easy access, but against that it is then not sufficiently wide for them to hang a full wild comb in there.......a compromise of cleaning inconvenience set against wild comb inconvenience. I know which I think would be worse. As it is they just add bits and bobs and only sometimes.

Yes...I would still have liked a thicker roof, but is it a serious defect? Not at all, its in the realm of minor improvements. Working very well with it just as it is.

I was going to make one myself at one time, but once that one arrived there was no need. Now we are going back into the British nightmare of market splintering with a number of competing styles, and not everyone will make money from it.

As for not modifying Smiths or Nationals? Well that happened long enough ago for the variants to acquire their own names (though even then people still do tinker). They want Jumbos, or mediums or enlarged boxes to take 14x12s, or they prefer modified nationals or WBC's or Commercials or Wormits, or heaven knows what long obsolete pattern. Dave Cushman and I used to chat about this issue, and there were at that time, to his knowledge no fewer than 69 extant variants of wooden hive based on BS frames and the variations on Langstroth were less than 10. The local hive with 7 times as many variants as the international one.........something not quite right there and no wonder we have to pay through the nose for kit.

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[The Drone Ranger]

No bees in bonnet C4u thats why my post is short
I dont have as many Payne's as you but I suppose I had about 40 at the start of the season sold 26
Still have the rest and bought 12 more to top up
The reason is I already have 2nd boxes for that many plus top feeders
On balance the Maisemore with a top feeder are more economical and better to use in my opinion I'm gradually moving over to them now
Regarding second boxes the idea there is to overwinter on double then take the queen plus bees in the Spring for delivery April but leave enough bees behind to create another nuc on the same site
You have your thoughts on which nucs you think are best, I dont agree but thats fine
I don't think there is any harm in saying that most poly nucs are less than perfect, because they are


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[fatshark]

20170814_102210.jpg

At some point along that line comes the marker that separates the individual painter + madness from the commercial and his/her employees ... for me it would be somewhere shortly after the first mustard-coloured one

[Calluna4u]

You have your thoughts on which nucs you think are best, I dont agree but thats fine

Not quite what I am saying but never mind.

For Smith etc I started with the Paynes ones and am happy with them. Are they the best? I don't know but I am content with them and there is no reason for me to go into the mess of mixing makes. Had I started with Maisemore I would probably be happy with them...albeit the poly is not quite as good, at least on the ones I have seen...but then NONE of the British made poly is perfect...too 'beady'. They don't have the same type of process as in Scandinavia or Germany. But its good enough.

Trouble is all the griping about minor stuff that comes out of UK beekeepers. I would buy it if only it did this, or that, or was that size, or took those frames, or whatever.

Last count there are now 7 moulds, all largely incompatible with eachother, in production for BS nucs. One, or maybe 2 to keep the first one price honest, is all we needed. The rest means amortising the huge mould cost away on ever smaller runs, putting the price up....yet again. We constantly shoot ourselves in the foot that way in the UK.

Keep it simple, keep it standard, have fewer options so dealers can keep less inventory and do longer more efficient production runs, and keep it economic.

[Calluna4u]

At some point along that line comes the marker that separates the individual painter + madness from the commercial and his/her employees ... for me it would be somewhere shortly after the first mustard-coloured one

lol...with you around I am glad I did not get into my thoughts about British beekeepers individual tastes being akin to entropy and quote from the second law of thermodynamics. The longer British beekeeping goes on the more complicated and chaotic it gets......

Big dogs with large intellectual sticks make the likes of me go hide in the bushes lol......

[The Drone Ranger]

Well I think its fine to point out what we dont like about various poly hives and nucs because we are paying for them after all
If suppliers get offended tough luck
Usually its only after parting with the cash you discover the niggles
Im always grateful to people who take the time to make their experiences known whether I agree with them or not

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[Calluna4u]

If suppliers get offended tough luck
Usually its only after parting with the cash you discover the niggles

I don't know any supplier who gets offended.

Some just shrug and do, what in my mind is broadly correct....keep their focus and accommodate the majority and ignore the plethora of little gripes they hear at conventions etc.

Others take it all on board and try to address the gripes, but each modification brings other issues that perhaps diminish the product in the eyes of others. You can end up with a product that deals with a lot of complaints but ends up not fit for purpose as it tries to be all things to all people and ends up with the big clients ignoring it and keeping with the simpler stuff.

Nothing is perfect in bee gear, everything is a compromise. I think we are agreed on that, just coming at it from opposite perspectives.

fwiw there is a new Langstroth nuc box coming onstream in the next two months and I have a preorder in. Its a simple one, essentially size change of the existing Paynes. I rejected the Abelo as too bitty, lots of things to lose, and the Honey Paradise and HoneyPaw ones as too expensive and too many pieces. I am disposing of my existing Tegart ones from Canada as they have poorer ventilation and are thus prone to chalk, especially with certain lines of bee. in this case there WAS a gap in the market, but many of the BS ones now coming to a market (just heard of another outfit making a mould overnight) that just does not need them, there is adequate choice out there already.

[Mellifera Crofter]

...Most of the poly nucs (apart from ones with lots of bits to lose) are excellent bits of kit and delightfully simple. ..

Yes...I would still have liked a thicker roof, but is it a serious defect? Not at all, its in the realm of minor improvements. ...

...Keep it simple, keep it standard, have fewer options so dealers can keep less inventory and do longer more efficient production runs, and keep it economic.

... Nothing is perfect in bee gear, everything is a compromise. I think we are agreed on that, just coming at it from opposite perspectives.
... but many of the BS ones now coming to a market (just heard of another outfit making a mould overnight) that just does not need them, there is adequate choice out there already.

I could not write sooner, but I've been thinking about this thread as I was working with my various nucs.

I understand what you're saying about the Paynes nucs, C4U. If you want an integral feeder, then take the rough with the smooth. Squashing bees can't be helped. I hate those feeders and won't buy any more. The Paynes poly nucs were the only ones available at the time when I bought them.

I also agree to keep things simple, C4U - but most of the designs we've had so far have two major flaws: not providing a bee space above the top bars and, as you've mentioned already, roofs that are too thin. The new poly nuc Prakel mentioned seems to have corrected both of these problems - so, I think, a necessary and welcome improvement.

I have Abelo National hives, but I don't have Abelo nucs because they don't make them in Nationals. However, looking at the photos of the Langstroth and Commercial ones, I think they look good. Speaking from my experience with their hives, I don't see the problem with all the extra bits and bobs. You don't have to carry them around with you. The side plugs will stay put - so, no problem. If you don't like the crown board plugs, then glue them shut. Again, no problem. Other people, like me, like the option of pulling plugs out for top openings or using the ventilation plugs when moving colonies.

I think the Abelo nucs must work similarly - use the plugs if you want them, or ignore them if you don't. Another advantage of those nucs, from what I can see in photos, is that they don't have lipped walls and instead use clasps that's fixed to the hive for secure moving. So, again, you don't have to carry extra stuff around with you, and I'd be pleased to have a nuc without lipped walls.

We're probably getting close to the 'adequate' mark now, C4U!

Kitta