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Thread: Poly hive musings.

  1. #581

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mellifera Crofter View Post
    Are you happy with your seven Abelos, DR?
    Kitta
    Hi Kitta
    Put it this way
    I went to Thornes sale and bought 10 Smith brood boxes 10 smith floors and 10 smith roofs


    My detour into the land of polystyrene is at an end (other than poly nucs)

    Poly hives are all soft easily damaged
    Not insect proof let alone rodent proof
    Thymol melts the polystyrene
    Heat melts the polystyrene
    They aren't particularly cheap
    The ones with lips on the boxes squash bees
    The ones without lips slip around like a stack of fish boxes
    Some have no frame rails
    Some have polystyrene frame rails
    The Lyson hard plastic edges are so slippy even a breeze shifts them
    Some are full of unnecessary holes
    Most are way oversize so don't fit with any other equipment
    There is no standard so they are not interchangeable
    The silly floppy plastic crown boards are a menace
    Being out of stock of the basic components for a whole year is ridiculous
    So much condensation forms they all need OMF's to try and fix it
    They are not environmentally friendly in any way

    While they might be comparable to some soft pine cheapo hive, they are not in the same league as even the sale quality English cedar boxes, let alone the real thing
    But each to his own I say , like Tofu , crystal healing , and homeopathy, So in the parlance of Dragons den "I'm out "








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    Last edited by The Drone Ranger; 27-09-2016 at 11:35 PM.

  2. #582
    Senior Member Mellifera Crofter's Avatar
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    😂
    I don't agree about the condensation though, and the other problems are surmountable.

    What are you going to do with your Abelos?

  3. #583
    Senior Member fatshark's Avatar
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    Yes, yes, but other than that, they're excellent DR.

    Seriously though ... your comments represents a compounded comment on the range of poly hive available. Stick to one and the problems/issues are less, though all are damaged with heat in the same way that all cedar boxes burn nicely.

    And the ones with lips are an abomination.

    I also don't see any difference in terms of condensation when compared with cedar, though all mine are on OMF's.

    I've invested this year as well and reserve judgement for a season or two. No stock issues with CWJ

  4. #584
    Senior Member Mellifera Crofter's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by fatshark View Post
    ...
    And the ones with lips are an abomination.

    I also don't see any difference in terms of condensation when compared with cedar, though all mine are on OMF's. ...
    Yes, I agree about the lipped ones. Having bought some Abelos, I can now sell those (so I shouldn't condemn them too loudly just now).

    As for condensation, I tend to keep the inspection trays in - certainly over winter and often until late spring or even later, and I'm not aware of condensation problems. But I do add extra insulation in the shallow I use as a feeder eke. So, if condensation forms, it's probably running off from the walls rather than dripping on the bees.

    Kitta

  5. #585

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    Quote Originally Posted by fatshark View Post
    Yes, yes, but other than that, they're excellent DR.

    Seriously though ... your comments represents a compounded comment on the range of poly hive available. Stick to one and the problems/issues are less, though all are damaged with heat in the same way that all cedar boxes burn nicely.
    Hi fatshark and Kitta
    Thing is if you stick to cedar Smith hives Or even nationals you can buy them from anybody they all fit
    As soon as you buy a poly hive you are locked in to one supplier
    Oxalic evaporation is a good Winter treatment which is made more complicated by easily melted poly
    I'm not a fan as you can tell but I can see the materials use for nucs that is mainly because its cheap
    I have both Maisemore and Payne's and they both have design issues but on the whole the Maisemore are better
    They have a feeder on top so that's a cost saving over buying a separate £10 Payne's one
    They don't have a slot with a huge thick flat area which squashes bees
    If you have a double brood nuc then the upper Payne's box meets that fat wall squashing bees
    The Maisemore doesn't come with a plastic cover and if you buy one it costs £2 and is barely big enough to cover the top of the nuc
    It's fractionally less functional than the thin Payne's cover which flops in or blows away on all but the calmest of days
    The bees stick the Maisemore feeder to the top of the frames which is a nuisance and the lip means no twisting to get it free
    No you have to lift it up first then twist while trusting to luck or having plenty spare queens

    The good news is that when someone comes up with a sensible no lip, no squash, no stick design, they will get all the business





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  6. #586

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    Wow...quite a devastating critique.......sad to see I am doing it all wrong.

    Seriously though, some of your issues are UK specific, and are the fault of the disparate voices of UK beeks, all with their own wrinkle on how it should be for them. You end up with a range of non compatible products all of which look as if they have been designed by a committee of 2 to 6 hives people all of whom have THE answer and succeed in getting it added to the design. It would be better if the makers stayed focussed and did NOT listen to their audience at the likes of Stoneleigh.

    You do not see some of these features in boxes in other countries.

    The idea that you cannot get compatible gear is a complete myth, just be careful what you buy at the outset. MOST poly gear sold is very simple top bee space Langstroth with flush edges and you can buy it from a large number of suppliers. The last lot we bought (albeit a large number) were under £10 per deep box, flush edged poly Lang deeps that take the frames from most international suppliers without any compatibility issues. SOME makers....actively selling in the UK....have intentionally pushed a variant that locks people in, and the nature of many UK beeks is that once they have chosen, they become an advocate of the one they selected, perpetuating the problem.

    Lipped boxes? A horror show, but nonetheless someone's bright idea. Partly amateur pressure, partly folk looking at the ReaDan ones from Denmark, where many of the visions of a poly future came from.

    Hard edges? Not needed in the slightest, very slippy, and actually make a cold spot. One maker told me they added them after complaints from beeks who would not start in poly as they were too soft unless they made the edges hard. Taking opinions on functionality from those who never tried them just HAS to be an error.

    Condensation? Never seen any issue with it and find wooden boxes worse. Roofs that are too thin from some makers are an issue. Condensation WILL be a problem if the least insulated face of the broodnest is the one overhead.

    Soft? Well it varies. Brittle? Can be, a particular issue with boxes made by a casting process rather than moulding. The very hardest boxes we have are Polish, and may or may not be from the same maker as Abelo use, but they are very biscuity and shatter easily.

    Flimsy crown boards? They are just a fig leaf to provide something compatible with British traditionalism. They are most definitely not needed and in fact are a thing to bin in most cases. They ARE a small advantage in poly nucs where having a peek at progress without needing the smoker is good.

    Odd you think having an extra feeder to go on top is an advantage in the nucs....we find the integral side feeder is just fine , the exception would be if we needed to add a block of fondant, but this need has never arisen up to now.

    Yes poly can melt or catch fire if you apply heat or flame. BUT........why do so? Easily sterilised by basic chemicals (dilute NaOH for example)...... and besides....I value getting lovely fresh comb drawn up to mid October in poly and being able to feed a full supply of syrup until mid November at least and they take it. Can't do that in wood.

    Ones without lips slip around like fish boxes? Yes, but only when brand spanking new. So do wood. All are just fine once used and there is wax and propolis on the surfaces. The bees stick them together just the same.

    Of course I have both Smith and Lang in wood....hundreds of them...........and poly Langs...also hundreds over 2 units. Have the statistics on them going back to 1997, but in statistically significant numbers since 2000. Over that period the poly hives out produced the wood by about 20%, and I have covered winter losses and spring bee power before. Losses and small colonies much much fewer in poly. That can only be a statistic of no interest if your wooden hives never have any losses and are always full of bees, and if the heather is of no great importance. They carry their bee power for 10 days or more longer at the heather, which is the big difference as they can work longer and do well in a late season. The only reasons for not replacing all with poly are that we want more hives, so I add poly as an extra, and have a family roots attachment to the Smith wooden unit.

    Sublimated oxalic acid might well be a point..................but its something we have never done AND attachments are available I believe to enable this to be done without damage, plus some have drilled a hole and fitted a short piece of pipe to enable access. However all the faffing about with blocking off mesh floors etc makes this an unattractive option and the trickling works just fine (and its a single visit) unless the colony is small, in which case we would choose a non oxalic route anyway. (We never close off the floors and never use any inserts.) (Of course none of us are thinking of oxalic acid as anything other than a wood bleach now as there is a licensed product on the market.)

    As for someone getting all the business if they deal with all that list of gripes? Never happen in the UK. There is no uniformity of opinion in wooden hives after 100 years.....poly has a LONG way to go to reach even that level of disharmony, in this, the most difficult, awkward, opinionated, diverse, and thus expensive, market in the world. The UK is a tiny market, and sliced into literally hundreds of dearly held variants. Despite their general unpopularity and high pricing, I do feel rather for UK manufacturers. In many cases they just can never win.
    Last edited by Calluna4u; 28-09-2016 at 06:50 PM.

  7. #587
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    I have one MB poly jumbo Lang. It's fine: I don't squash bees - no more than wooden. As an amateur I can afford the extra 20 seconds to smoke the edges when replacing.

    Subsequent edit: I won it as a prize...

    I have 7 (home built) wooden jumbo Langs- a mix of cheap shuttering ply and wood.

    Condensation: none internal in the poly. Around the roof join yes - but external - and a poly top hat stopped that. ALL the wooden ones would have lots but I use poly hive cosies (roof 100mm, sides 50mm). Easy to lift off. 2kg max. No condensation.

    All my hives have minimal operator damage despite being a bit ham handed..I have dropped full boxes before !! so wear steel capped boots during manipulations.

    Most of the criticisms of poly hives in my view relate to operator error or the wrong choice.

    British Beekeeping is- in my personal view- in the stone age.. the BBKA have an article in October's magazine questioning the value of hive insulation - by a Scottish beekeeper!!!! All opinion without one single fact or study to back it up. As someone brought up in a scientific discipline, I find the attitudes and approaches of many all a bit Middle Ages before the Age of Enlightenment..


    Sorry for the rant..
    Last edited by madasafish; 29-09-2016 at 10:03 AM.

  8. #588
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    I have abelo, swienty and modern beekeeping poly nats.
    The abelo joby is good to go out of the box and any slipiness is dealt with by a bit of propolis once occupied as C4u says, the swienty are also good but need paint and varnish and my old style ones have flat frame rests which take some care not to squish bees on, both are fully interchangeable and compatible with wood bottom bee space gear. The modern beekeeping abomination is the devils own turd to work, squishes bees for fun, isn't compatible with anything but more of the same cockwombleing design and I wouldn't get any more if they were offered at a tenth of the price.

  9. #589

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    Condensation is because of the plastic fig leaf true enough
    I'm sure C4u that you are doing it right for you needs
    I wasn't thinking of you
    I'm just giving opinion of the ones I have bought not the people who use them who are all lovely

    Smith cedar hives are simple, solid, top bee space, don't slip, don't need painting, are available everywhere,are pretty cheap in Thornes sale, the short lug frames are sensible , they are easy to treat with apibolloxal ,the edges are slim they don't squash bees, you can twist them to release boxes, crown boards are solid, you don't need to strap them to stop the lids blowing off, they don't have gimmicks like extra holes etc
    Apart from that though they are definitely not as good as polystyrene
    I wish I had started with Langstroth hives but its too late to revisit that now
    So you chaps that use them are right on that score
    Its still windy outside so I have been checking the straps on the nucs before the lids end up in the next county

    I'm just hard to please but I'm not suggesting that's anyone's fault but mine own

    I have the components for another hive monitoring board maybe I should put one on a poly hive and one on a Smith hive to get some comparison of hive environments during the Winter







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    Last edited by The Drone Ranger; 29-09-2016 at 04:57 PM.

  10. #590
    Administrator gavin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mbc View Post
    I have abelo, swienty and modern beekeeping poly nats.
    The abelo joby is good to go out of the box and any slipiness is dealt with by a bit of propolis once occupied as C4u says, the swienty are also good but need paint and varnish and my old style ones have flat frame rests which take some care not to squish bees on, both are fully interchangeable and compatible with wood bottom bee space gear. The modern beekeeping abomination is the devils own turd to work, squishes bees for fun, isn't compatible with anything but more of the same cockwombleing design and I wouldn't get any more if they were offered at a tenth of the price.
    My contribution to this debate (other than polys are usually good for bees - colony survival, building, maintenance of brood in iffy summers, honey yield - just find ways to deal with thin plastic covers and mitigate bee squashing and buy Swienties and Paynes or Maisemore nucs) is .....

    Nice to see 'jobby' (aka jobbie) used by a non-Scottish contributer. In the meaning a thing, and example of a kind of thing. It is a word that was used frequently (both meanings) in my younger days and you don't hear it enough these days.

    The wombling thing is new to me.

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