Bayer: Low level neonicotinoids kill colonies by interference with grooming behaviour

The following message was posted by Stromnessbees in the Blog area. The Blog is generally used for posting diaries of personal experiences rather than cut-and-paste diatribes. I have moved Stromnessbees post here, deleted it from the Blog area, and withdrawn her permission to post in the Blog area. G.

Termites are closely related to bees and like bees they live in highly organised colonies which rely on grooming behaviour to keep out infections and parasites.

In the 1990s Bayer developed a method of killing termite colonies with low levels of Imidacloprid that stop this grooming behaviour, they called this 'Premise Plus Nature' (TM)

Did it not occur to them that the same would happen to colonies of bees which collect nectar and pollen contaminated with these neurotoxins?

Did they fail to test it on bees, or did they test it and ignore the results?

Here an article about their termite killing strategy from 1997:


Premise Plus Nature Equals Value Added Termite Control

| March 1, 1997 |

Countless weapons have been created over the years in attempts to win the war against termites. Some kill on contact, others repel termites, but all share the goal of structural protection. Throughout the search to find the perfect weapon even nature has been unsuccessful, until now.

Premise® Insecticide, introduced by Bayer Corporation in 1996, works synergistically with nature to provide value-added termite control. Premise Plus Nature,TM the term the manufacturer uses to describe the product's unique mode of action, affects termites by making them susceptible to infection, disease and death by naturally occurring organisms.

HOW IT WORKS.

With Premise there are two modes of action at work. At moderate to high exposure levels, Premise causes termites to stop feeding, stop grooming, become disoriented and die. Premise Plus Nature takes over at lower exposure levels. Unlike contact mortality and repellent barrier termiticides, this unique mode of action puts Premise in a category all its own.

Like germs that cause illness and disease in humans, microorganisms, especially fungi naturally present in the soil, cause disease in termites. Fungal spores attach themselves to the termite cuticle, germinate, penetrate and eventually cause death. But thanks to Mother Nature, termites have found ways to survive in this hostile soil environment.

The termites' habit of grooming themselves and other termites in the colony is a principle part of their defense systems. This instinctive habit enables termites to virtually eliminate the threat of the fungi; termites remove the spores before they can germinate and cause disease.

Premise Plus Nature disrupts this natural defense process. After exposure to Premise, termites no longer groom themselves or take care of each other. Premise interferes with their methods of combating fungi and, in the end, they will succumb to disease and death.
"Grooming offers termites a shield to protect themselves. But when grooming stops and the shield is down, infection takes over," said David Price, a biologist at Bayer Corporation's Vero Beach, Fla., laboratory. "With Premise, termites don't get the chance to fight back."

SEEING IS BELIEVING.

Visitors to the Bayer booth at the National Pest Control Association's convention and trade show in San Diego in October had the opportunity to witness Premise Plus Nature in action. Live demonstrations showed the one-day, two-day and five-day effects Premise has on termites.

"With the demonstrations you can see how Premise Plus Nature works," said Price. "You can see that the exposed ter-mites no longer feed or groom. You can even watch the termites die."

Research has been conducted at the University of Florida to examine the synergy between Premise and nature, specifically the termite's natural defense system. In one specific study, glass cover slips were sprayed with fungal spores and placed in the feeding and tunneling areas of laboratory termite colonies. In the control colony where Premise was not applied, the spores were removed by termite activity in a few hours. This scenario mimics what happens with termites in the soil on a day-to-day basis; termites destroy fungi by grooming themselves and each other which keeps their soil environment clean.

In the environment where Premise was present, the fungi began developing in just one day. The termites did not re-move the spores. In an outside environment, these spores would proceed to attach themselves to the termites, germinate and cause death.

Research illustrates how Premise interferes with feeding, grooming and colony maintenance in such a way that termites can't protect themselves from pathogenic fungi.

"Premise Plus Nature means value-added termite control," said Dr. Mike Ruizzo, pest control research product manager for Bayer Corporation. "Premise allows nature to take over and destroy the termites."

http://www.pctonline.com/Article.aspx?article_id=39807

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gavin

The following message was posted by Stromnessbees in the Blog area. The Blog is supposed to be for posting diaries of personal experiences rather than cut-and-paste diatribes. I have moved Stromnessbees post here, deleted it from the Blog area, and withdrawn her permission to post in the Blog area. G.

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Gavin, you yourself cut and pasted a whole article onto the front page of the forum yesterday: Honeybee Problems Explained ...

We ordinary forum members are not allowed to post there, but we can (in my case 'could') use the blog facility.
Forgive me if I didn't know that we weren't allowed to do in our blogs what you take for granted on the front page.


The document I posted was deliberately unaltered and contains verbatim statements from Bayer experts.
I am surprised that you call this a 'diatribe', I am sure that these statements were meant perfectly seriously.

I do forgive you, Doris.

The front page, the Home area, is used to provide news relevant to beekeeping, and sometimes particularly interesting posts have been elevated to articles on there too. We should have been updating it more often but, hey, we're all busy people. Members can post on the forums and (almost all of them anyway!) in their own blogs. The Home page is for me and the Moderators to update. The new work on DWV is indeed newsworthy. The amplification of the virus when Varroa is present has been known for a long time, but the dynamics of different strains of the virus and in particular the dominance of a single type of the virus is something new. The researchers clearly indicated that this pest-pathogen combination is at the heart of much of the bee losses worldwide. That isn't controversial. There are many who even believe that Dave Hackenberg's problems (he initiated concerns about CCD) were down to Varroa and the viruses it amplifies.

The blogs are essentially online personal diaries published for all to see. It isn't hard to get the idea if you read a few of them. Give it a couple of months and, if you wish to keep one on here and if you can avoid overt campaigning, then ask nicely and we may let you post blogs again.

Arguments about pesticides (or GM crops) often get heated and are a real turn-off for many forum members. So we are doing our best to restrict such debates to the one area. You might think that pesticides are so important that discussion of them should be everywhere on SBAi but for the good of the forum they will take place only in this section.

Gavin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gavin

Arguments about pesticides (or GM crops) often get heated and are a real turn-off for many forum members.

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I think that the main turn off is that a few people (on which ever bee forum we're looking at) have such polarized views that they're simply prepared to neither listen to the other side of the debate or to let the argument lie until further evidence presents itself, it's a constant rehash of the same (dare I say posts) views over and over but without any forward progress. I'm as interested as the next beekeeper in these subjects but I'm still waiting (and open minded enough to accept) for concrete, unquestionable proof one way or the other with regards to pesticides; something which I truly doubt will materialize as I believe that ultimately the key will be found in better husbandry. Sure pesticides kill things, but so does lack of care and attention.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by prakel

I think that the main turn off is that a few people (on which ever bee forum we're looking at) have such polarized views that they're simply prepared to neither listen to the other side of the debate or to let the argument lie until further evidence presents itself, it's a constant rehash of the same (dare I say posts) views over and over but without any forward progress. I'm as interested as the next beekeeper in these subjects but I'm still waiting (and open minded enough to accept) for concrete, unquestionable proof one way or the other with regards to pesticides; something which I truly doubt will materialize as I believe that ultimately the key will be found in better husandry. Sure pesticides kill things, but so does lack of care and attention.

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Agree in 100%...


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I am here: http://tapatalk.com/map.php?m3a1gy

Gavin with reference to the SBAi blogs is it overtly said somewhere that they are only to be used as personal diaries? I know that's what people on here use them for but blogs can and tbh are used to cover much more than that. They don't just have to be a "what I did today" type thing but can cover other stuff the blogger likes - videos, images and yes, cut and pasted text. So, to me, Doris didn't do anything wrong here. Unless of course there's somewhere it says you can't use the blog as an actual blog.

Hi Gerry

No, and I hope that you don't take my comments as instruction to use them only as personal diaries. I did have a 'supposed to be used' which I've changed for a 'generally used for'. People can use them for a variety of purposes, but the practice on here and on the other bee fora I've looked at is to use the blogs in that way. If you or the other members want to use them for other purposes I doubt that the Admin/Moderator team would have much difficulty with that. I wasn't issuing an instruction on how to use them, just pointing out that they are essentially used for that purpose here.

My issue with Doris' action was that she is trying to spread a message as conspicuously on this site as she can get away with. The heated debates she aroused earlier changed the character of the forum for a while from a friendly, helpful place to a place of bickering and long-winded posts. Several people expressed their unhappiness at the direction things were taking and hinted that they were thinking of withdrawing. Also, Doris revealed that she is unwilling to be truly open to debate and anyone who doesn't follow her particular line of thinking will be labelled as biased somehow and have that interpretation posted on other places on the internet. On the Beekeeping Forum the other day she was unrepentent on that.

So Doris is now the only forum member with less privileges than others here. That is for the good of the forum and the people who use it. Debate on pesticides is still allowed here, but any attempt to spread it into other areas is not. That way the overall character of the forum can continue as before. It isn't easy to get all this right, and I feel certain that if Doris had behaved like this on any other forum her posting rights would have been history ages ago.

Gavin

Hi Gavin

I'm in no way defending the actions of Doris in, among other things, maligning the members of this forum here and elsewhere and, indeed, I took her to task for it a while back on the Irish list.

Maybe the heading needs to be changed from the word "blog" which has come to have a reasonably specific meaning to something like diary. It seems clear that you don't really intend that section to be used as a blog in the general meaning of the word. I don't have a problem with that at all but it's not very clear to users at the moment.

For myself I'd be happy to see the blog section used in the fullest sense of the word. And if Doris chose to post whatever there at least it would be easier to avoid than if it's in the main forum and no-one would feel pressured to engage in a dialogue with her.

Quote:

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Termites are closely related to bees and like bees they live in highly organised colonies which rely on grooming behaviour to keep out infections and parasites.

In the 1990s Bayer developed a method of killing termite colonies with low levels of Imidacloprid that stop this grooming behaviour, they called this 'Premise Plus Nature' (TM)

Did it not occur to them that the same would happen to colonies of bees which collect nectar and pollen contaminated with these neurotoxins?

Did they fail to test it on bees, or did they test it and ignore the results?

Here an article about their termite killing strategy from 1997:


Premise Plus Nature Equals Value Added Termite Control

| March 1, 1997 |

Countless weapons have been created over the years in attempts to win the war against termites. Some kill on contact, others repel termites, but all share the goal of structural protection. Throughout the search to find the perfect weapon even nature has been unsuccessful, until now.

Premise® Insecticide, introduced by Bayer Corporation in 1996, works synergistically with nature to provide value-added termite control. Premise Plus Nature,TM the term the manufacturer uses to describe the product's unique mode of action, affects termites by making them susceptible to infection, disease and death by naturally occurring organisms.

HOW IT WORKS.

With Premise there are two modes of action at work. At moderate to high exposure levels, Premise causes termites to stop feeding, stop grooming, become disoriented and die. Premise Plus Nature takes over at lower exposure levels. Unlike contact mortality and repellent barrier termiticides, this unique mode of action puts Premise in a category all its own.

Like germs that cause illness and disease in humans, microorganisms, especially fungi naturally present in the soil, cause disease in termites. Fungal spores attach themselves to the termite cuticle, germinate, penetrate and eventually cause death. But thanks to Mother Nature, termites have found ways to survive in this hostile soil environment.

The termites' habit of grooming themselves and other termites in the colony is a principle part of their defense systems. This instinctive habit enables termites to virtually eliminate the threat of the fungi; termites remove the spores before they can germinate and cause disease.

Premise Plus Nature disrupts this natural defense process. After exposure to Premise, termites no longer groom themselves or take care of each other. Premise interferes with their methods of combating fungi and, in the end, they will succumb to disease and death.
"Grooming offers termites a shield to protect themselves. But when grooming stops and the shield is down, infection takes over," said David Price, a biologist at Bayer Corporation's Vero Beach, Fla., laboratory. "With Premise, termites don't get the chance to fight back."

SEEING IS BELIEVING.

Visitors to the Bayer booth at the National Pest Control Association's convention and trade show in San Diego in October had the opportunity to witness Premise Plus Nature in action. Live demonstrations showed the one-day, two-day and five-day effects Premise has on termites.

"With the demonstrations you can see how Premise Plus Nature works," said Price. "You can see that the exposed ter-mites no longer feed or groom. You can even watch the termites die."

Research has been conducted at the University of Florida to examine the synergy between Premise and nature, specifically the termite's natural defense system. In one specific study, glass cover slips were sprayed with fungal spores and placed in the feeding and tunneling areas of laboratory termite colonies. In the control colony where Premise was not applied, the spores were removed by termite activity in a few hours. This scenario mimics what happens with termites in the soil on a day-to-day basis; termites destroy fungi by grooming themselves and each other which keeps their soil environment clean.

In the environment where Premise was present, the fungi began developing in just one day. The termites did not re-move the spores. In an outside environment, these spores would proceed to attach themselves to the termites, germinate and cause death.

Research illustrates how Premise interferes with feeding, grooming and colony maintenance in such a way that termites can't protect themselves from pathogenic fungi.

"Premise Plus Nature means value-added termite control," said Dr. Mike Ruizzo, pest control research product manager for Bayer Corporation. "Premise allows nature to take over and destroy the termites."

http://www.pctonline.com/Article.aspx?article_id=39807

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Question 1.
If this is the patented method of irradicating termites; by low- level introduction of neonics into their colonies and thereby reducing their resistance to all their natural challenges, how could the same thing not happen to their close cousins - bees?

Question 2.
As for scientific evidence, should we believe Suchail et al. who confirmed Bayer's claims of the remarkable toxicity of Imidacloprid; or Schmuck et al. who found no deleterious effects of chronic low-level poisoning by neonics on bee colonies ?(Schmuck is Bayer's in-house scientist.)

Question 3.
Why has nobody on this forum, so far, commented on how a pesticide, lethal to termites, has little or no effect on bees?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by drumgerry

Hi Gavin

I'm in no way defending the actions of Doris in, among other things, maligning the members of this forum here and elsewhere and, indeed, I took her to task for it a while back on the Irish list.

Maybe the heading needs to be changed from the word "blog" which has come to have a reasonably specific meaning to something like diary. It seems clear that you don't really intend that section to be used as a blog in the general meaning of the word. I don't have a problem with that at all but it's not very clear to users at the moment.

For myself I'd be happy to see the blog section used in the fullest sense of the word. And if Doris chose to post whatever there at least it would be easier to avoid than if it's in the main forum and no-one would feel pressured to engage in a dialogue with her.

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I think there is a question here around what is wanted from this site.

Should we also allow the anti mobile phone and anti power line crew who've also tried to expand into "Dying bees!!!!!" Evangelise unchallenged on here? have a look on another forum where new beekeepers asking sensible questions are being told that pesticides are the root cause of whatever problem it is they're asking about and seeing their question disintegrate into the standard argument as a result. Should we accept that "Let your bees swarm" is a valid position to hold as a responsible beekeeper? What about non treatment? Where's the line to be drawn on what is supposed to be a sensible beekeeping forum?

Should SBAi be synonymous with whatever cause du jour is currently doing the rounds because we'll just sit back and let people claim any old tosh? Is it acceptable to slander, insult and belittle anyone who dares challenge those views?

And as I know someone shouting "What about free speech" can't be far behind, here's a little secret, every single forum on the internet except one has rules about what you can and can't post, whether about general conduct, being work suitable, being nice to each other etc. and this one is no different. The rules have always been generally lax and as a member I'd really like them to stay that way and unwritten. Sadly I think the views expressed that aren't agreed with have to be challenged, because to ignore them is to passively agree their validity. It remains a constant source of annoyance that to challenge the view is to constantly put yourself in the firing line.