Artificial swarm (Ian Craig)

In Nellie's Soft Set Honey thread EmsE referred to Ian Craig's article which I started to read, but got stuck with his description of his artificial swarm method. Can somebody please help me to understand it?

I followed everything until the bottom of page 11 (the paragraph starting 'After twenty four hours ...'). I understand the bit where he said the open crown board is replaced with a swarm board, with the entrance open to the front. He then says, "Five days later the top front upper entrance is closed, the top front lower entrance opened and the top back upper entrance opened."

I'm a bit confused by all these top entrances. I understand the 'top front upper' and 'top back upper' (they belong to the swarm board - I think) but where is the 'top front lower entrance'? Or should the word 'top' not be there?

Can I interpret this whole procedure as: once you've replaced the open crown board with a swarm board, you open the swarm board's front entrance. (Do we then close the queen's brood-box entrance below so that all the bees use the swarm board entrance? He does not say that, and I don't quite understand.) Then, five days later, we close the swarm board's front entrance; open the swarm board's back entrance; and open the 'top front lower entrance'. Does he mean opening the queen's brood-box entrance so that all the new bees emerging at the top has a new entrance to which they'll return, while all the old flying bees will continue to use the front entrance (the queen's brood-box entrance)?

Sorry about the long-winded query. I'm confused about the opening and closing of the brood-box entrance and the word 'top' everywhere - but am I on the right track?

Kitta

There are in effect two entrance hatches on each side. One opens above the board, the other below it.

After a week or so you close the entrance above the board and open the entrance below. All the flying bees from the top section now come back and instead of entering above the board, they now go in below instead regardless of which entrance above the board is currently open as they're flying to where they remember the entrance to be rather than where it currently is.

So you're continually bleeding off the flying bees from the box above the board into the one below it. After another week you can repeat the process.

The bees in the lower box continue to use the standard entrance.

What he's referring to is basically a Snelgrove board (or variation thereof).

Hope that makes sense.

There are 3 entrances in Ian's boards. There are 2 at the front and 1 at the back. The idea is to bleed off flying bees to the bottom brood box with the original queen. When you close the upper front entrance you open the lower front entrance. A week later you open the upper back entrance to allow the new queen to mate and close the lower front entrance. You end up with two hives on top of each other with an entrance on each brood box facing opposite sides

This was the method we were taught in our local beginners class, with the equipment used to demonstrate the process, making it much clearer. It's less work than moving one hive from one side to the other of the original colony and you don't need as much space or equipment either.

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Originally Posted by Mellifera Crofter

In Nellie's Soft Set Honey thread EmsE referred to Ian Craig's article which I started to read, but got stuck with his description of his artificial swarm method.

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I got stuck at his solid floor, no insulation and matchsticks part way through "January":(

Hi susbees, the insulation is still in place in January (it is put in place in November). The matchsticks are used for ventilation purposes because of the solid floors but are removed in mid feb to help conserve the heat to help with brood rearing.

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Originally Posted by Nellie

There are in effect two entrance hatches on each side. One opens above the board, the other below it.

... What he's referring to is basically a Snelgrove board (or variation thereof).

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

There are 3 entrances in Ian's boards. There are 2 at the front and 1 at the back. ... You end up with two hives on top of each other with an entrance on each brood box facing opposite sides

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Originally Posted by EmsE

...It's less work than moving one hive from one side to the other of the original colony and you don't need as much space or equipment either.

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Thanks Nellie, Jimbo and EmsE - I've seen the light. I think I'll give it a try this summer. I tried a Horsley board last summer, but a deer pushed the hive over (I think that's what happened) and caused mayhem. I'll now have a good think as to when to use what method. Snelgrove, Horsley, or whatever else.

Kitta

Demaree!

Graeme Sharpe described his use of the Demaree on Monday in Dundee (amongst many other things) and handed out a leaflet on it. Simple, effective, can easily be modified to take off a nuc or two, can introduce a frame of eggs to raise queens from a different stock. It is still a method which builds a tower and needs at least some lifting off to inspect the bottom box.

I'm going to try our variation of snelgroves method this year. It's basically the same just with less fannying around opening and closing hatches.

As Ive only got one snelgrove board though I'll probably be testing other methods too :)

Gavin, any chance of a scan of that leaflet?

Hi Nellie,

I have used various methods of swarm control. I tend to mix and match depending on what equipment I have available and what I want to achieve.
I have cut and pasted the basic Demaree method that I use
Step 1
Remove the hive from its floorboard and put a new box with 8 drawn frames
on its place.
Step 2
Go through the original brood box and locate the queen. Place her with two
frames of sealed brood in the centre of the new box.
Step 3
Place a queen excluder on this box and put a super or several supers above
the excluder.
Step 4
Put the original brood box with remaining unsealed brood on top. Fill up the
gap with 2 frames of drawn comb, one on each side. The foraging bees will
return to the bottom box where the queen is and the nurse bees will stay with
the brood, as if they had swarmed.
Fit inner cover and roof on the stack.
Step 5
After 7 to10 days, inspect the hive and destroy any queen cells that may have
developed in the top brood box. After then none can be started above since
larvae less than three days will not be available. As the brood hatches, the
combs will be filled with honey.
Step 6
The procedure of separating most brood from the queen is repeated after
9 to10 days with queen cells destroyed in the top box. Once demareeing is
completed the swarming drive is extinguished.
In this rearrangement, the hive is stacked up like this:
Brood box with young brood
Super
Queen Excluder
Brood box with queen, 2 frames sealed brood & rest empty combs
The colony has all of its brood and the queen, but the queen is separated
from most of her brood and has a new brood nest below the excluder. A large
portion of the bees is in the top where most of the brood is moved, and a
small portion of the bees with a small portion of brood and queen in the
bottom brood box.
By doing this, the queen will have plenty of space to lay eggs and expand her
brood nest; the nurse bees will be upstairs away from the brood nest in the
lower box, which relieves congestion. The foraging bees will get a great deal
of room to store honey in the middle hive bodies.
In the top box due to the absence of the queen the bees will attempt to raise a
new queen from the open brood. These can all be destroyed or used in
replacing old queens and making increase (splits). Alternatively a new queen
may be allowed to hatch out after selecting the best cell and inserting a
screen floor under the top box as upper entrance to allow the queen to leave
the hive and mate. The hive is managed as two queen colonies. What you do
after this depends on your needs. This new queen, once laying in good brood
pattern can be used to re-queen the old queen or the hive is split to start a
new colony, whilst still producing some honey, or after harvest.
Tips and Hints
1. Demareeing or separation of the queen from the brood is intended to be
used before a hive has already swarmed, and when the colony is becoming a
little crowded i.e. has eight or more combs of brood and before queen cells
are constructed.
2. Demaree method should be applied immediately on a strong colony,
showing sings of swarming (presence of several queen cells) or if the hive’s
population covering all combs in a two chambers brood nest and there is no
more space for egg laying.
3. It is important that all queen cells in the brood boxes be destroyed that
were already constructed at the time the brood is divided. When destroying
the queen cells shake the bees from the combs or they will cover some of the
cells, which will thus be missed. Don’t miss any. If a queen cell is missed, the
hive will still swarm.
4. If you have more brood than the top box can hold, you can put a few
frames of sealed brood in the middle of the second super.
5. When the queen fills the brood box under the queen excluder transfer the
frames of unsealed brood and eggs into a top story and return 7-10 days later
to destroy any subsequent queen cells.
6. Remove queen excluder and recombine hive bodies when the prime
swarming season is over.
7. Use the Demaree method once during a season.
8. Keeping a race of bees with a low tendency to swarm, and selection of non
swarmy strains are the first steps to swarm prevention.

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Originally Posted by EmsE

Hi susbees, the insulation is still in place in January (it is put in place in November). The matchsticks are used for ventilation purposes because of the solid floors but are removed in mid feb to help conserve the heat to help with brood rearing.

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Ah, ok, found the insulation: but also found that he doesn't like OMF as he considers that the wind sweeps in...simple solution being to put a spare super under the floor for winter (which I'm pretty sure I got off a Scottish leaflet at some point). I'm grateful for every mite that falls out the bottom of my OMFs ;). Meanwhile as warm air rises it seeps out from the gap at the top with matchsticks reducing the good done by the insulation.

He seems to be in the minority on Solid floors. Asked a few people who used to use solid floors and have since switched to OMFs whether they'd go back to solid if Varroa disappeared tomorrow. None of them would

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Originally Posted by gavin

Demaree!

Graeme Sharpe described his use of the Demaree on Monday in Dundee (amongst many other things) ...

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

... I have used various methods of swarm control. I tend to mix and match depending on what equipment I have available and what I want to achieve.
I have cut and pasted the basic Demaree method that I use ...

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I have also heard Graeme explaining the Demaree method a year or so ago, but I glazed over with incomprehension (and lost his notes). I'm reading and rereading your instructions, Jimbo, but I still don't quite get it. What happens to the emerging drones? Won't they become trapped above the queen excluder? Aren't the Snelgrove and Horsley methods kinder to the drones? What are the advantages of the Demaree method over the other two?

Kitta

The idea with Demaree is that you can keep moving frames up and down between the boxes all season if you want without messing up the honey crop and needing more space and extra equipment. Just keep dealing with any cells.

Jimbo's description is similar to Graeme's leaflet - a few subtle differences but I doubt that they are important. Drones? Yes, Graeme's leaflet suggests just opening up the top box from time to time to let them out (nice to see drone compassion here and there!).

What advantage is carried by the Demaree method? I'd guess simplicity and adaptability, but then I never paid much attention to the Snelgrove and Horsely methods.

When you use a 2 box queenright queenrearing system it is essentially a Demaree system and I find that my cell raising colonies rarely make a natural queen cell as the queen always has a box of drawn foundation to lay in and is never cramped for style.
It's a curious business, as the colony can produce 100 queen cells for you in the top box yet it makes no attempt to swarm.

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Originally Posted by susbees

The idea with Demaree is that you can keep moving frames up and down between the boxes all season if you want without messing up the honey crop and needing more space and extra equipment. Just keep dealing with any cells.

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Originally Posted by gavin

...What advantage is carried by the Demaree method? I'd guess simplicity and adaptability ...

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Can one make a little eke with an entrance to allow the drones their freedom? But I suppose that introduces extra equipment and they may decide to swarm through this entrance if we've missed a queencell.

If the queen is separated from the main broodbox at the top by one or two supers, does one really need a queen excluder? Is she likely to march up over the super or supers to get to the top box? The drones will then be free.

I've just read an old post by Jon from May 2010 warning that there must be drawn comb in the brood box if the bees have access to honey combs because, if not, the workers will polish the honey combs to make space for the queen. So, I suppose if it is feasible to do what I've just suggested, then one must bear that in mind.

Jon's post is here:

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Originally Posted by Jon

I have noticed that when you do this the bees tend to move into the super where the comb is already drawn and will be reluctant to draw more than a couple of frames of foundation down below. Bees may be smart - but they are not smart enough to know that a queen excluder lives up to its name so they will polish cells for the queen to lay in up in the super as it sure beats drawing foundation.

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Kitta

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jon

When you use a 2 box queenright queenrearing system it is essentially a Demaree system and I find that my cell raising colonies rarely make a natural queen cell as the queen always has a box of drawn foundation to lay in and is never cramped for style.
It's a curious business, as the colony can produce 100 queen cells for you in the top box yet it makes no attempt to swarm.

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Jon, what does your 2-box system look like?

Hi Mellifera Crofter,

When I use the Demaree I still have to check the old queen that she is not making further queen cells. I am therefore stripping down the hive approx every week and the drones are released. The mistake when I used to do Demaree was after I had done the split I thought that was it but in some cases the queen would still produce queen cells and swarm. I changed to using Ian Craigs version of a split board therfore the release of drones is not a problem. I tend to use the split board when I am producing a new queen but use the Demaree if I want to keep the hive strong for honey production. You could still use the Demaree if you want to produce queen cells for Nucs but I tend to use the split board

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Originally Posted by Mellifera Crofter

Can one make a little eke with an entrance to allow the drones their freedom?

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You could do that but you will probably get a problem with brace comb.
Some people just bore a little hole in the top box to let the drones escape.
They are attracted to the light.
I find that the drones escape anyway when I remove the crownboard of the top box.

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Jon, what does your 2-box system look like?

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It is a normal set up with the queen in the bottom box which is covered by an excluder.
The supers, if any, go above this and the top box on top of the supers.
I often put a second excluder over the supers and below the top box as insurance, as this prevents a virgin queen which hatches early in the top box from getting down into the supers. Having said that, it is bad practice to let a virgin queen escape as you should put rollers over the cells 48 hours before hatch date.

With a Demaree system you must be able to find your queen every 10 days or so when you rearrange the frames from top to bottom as you have to keep her in the bottom box.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jimbo

... I tend to use the split board when I am producing a new queen but use the Demaree if I want to keep the hive strong for honey production. You could still use the Demaree if you want to produce queen cells for Nucs but I tend to use the split board

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jon

...Some people just bore a little hole in the top box to let the drones escape. They are attracted to the light.

I often put a second excluder over the supers and below the top box as insurance, as this prevents a virgin queen which hatches early in the top box from getting down into the supers. Having said that, it is bad practice to let a virgin queen escape as you should put rollers over the cells 48 hours before hatch date.

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Thanks Jimbo and Jon,

I'm beginning to get a better idea of what to do when - better, but not quite there yet. When I asked about using the honey boxes as a queen excluder, it did not occur to me that a new queen in the top box might want to move down to get out. I've seen your photograph with the rollers, Jon, but have never used rollers. Perhaps that's something else I should learn about this year.

Back to the split board or Snelgrove board - another question: Why do some variations have a gauze insert, and others - like Ian's - are without?

Kitta

I was told the gauze inserts was to allow heat up to the upper box but have never used that type of split board

To add to that, I've heard that bees will exchange feed across a mesh and so the weaker half (in terms of foragers) may benefit. The other thing is that the colonies will not diverge in terms of colony odour and any reuniting or movement of queens later should go more smoothly.

Thanks, Jimbo and Gavin.

Next question if I may: When would one choose a Snelgrove (or division board) and when a Horsley Board?

I've mentioned that I used a Horsley Board last year, but my reason for using it then was because I could not find the queen and I've run out of floors and roofs and therefore had to create an AS under one roof. I brushed all the bees into the new bottom brood box and waited for the nurse bees to move up to the old box through the little queen excluder slot. I don't know if it would have worked because the hive was knocked over. Are there any other reasons for choosing the one method above the other?

Kitta

Hi MC,

I have never used either of the above for swarm control. I tend to keep it simple. If I see charged queen cells on my weekly inspections. I look for the queen and do the split similar to the demaree. I leave 24hrs for the nurse bees to move up to cover the brood and queen cells. I then put in my swarm board with the 3 doors and bleed off flying bees back into the bottom box with the old queen. I then sort out the queen cell I want and leave them to get on with it. When that top box has a new mated laying queen I then either increase by splitting or reunite back with the bottom colony after removing the old queen. If I find charged queen cells and cant find the queen I shake off all the bees into the bottom box and remove the frames of brood into another box which I put on top with the queen excluder between both boxes, leave 24hrs for the nurse bees to move up and cover the brood. I still check (Also lets out any drones stuck in the top box)1 week later in the bottom box to see that the old queen is not making more queen cells and that she is laying well.

Thanks Jimbo

'Keep it simple.' I like that.

Thanks to everybody for your help.

Kitta

Basically the Horsley board and the Snelgrove board have similar functions i.e. separating the new b.box and supers from the old brood box which is placed on top.With the horsley board you can brush off all the bees from the frames in the upper chamber then open the slide exposing access to the upper chamber for the nurse bees to clamber up to cover the brood and excluding all the older bees by then closing the slide - blocking of the lower chamber from the top box.Flying from the upper box is via the slot in the upper framing.The Snelgrove board has a central hole covered in mesh.This allows contact between the upper and lower bees thro the mesh which maintains the same hive odour top and bottom.The Snelgrove system WAS intended to force the bees to make emergency cells in the upper box allowing several splits to be made,the Horsley board was intended as a swarm control method although the Snelgrove board is also used for swarm control.Both boards are so similar that I dont think it matters which one you use in a Demaree artificial swarm.If you read Snelgroves book his system is quite complicated-filtering off bees from the top box to the lower to keep the number of bees in the top box small and thus preventing "thoughts" of swarming occuring in the upper chamber.I've used the "pure" snelgrove system-faithfully following his method but you need to keep a pretty good diary of opening and closing the upper and lower slides for bee filtering.

I'll try and dig up some slides for the simplified Snelgrove method that we use round these parts.

Right then, This chart might be a useful reference:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7053/6...cca04c0c_b.jpg

The Really basic version:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7176/6...ba8cca01_b.jpg


The slightly more involved version:

http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7051/6...37ddbb48_b.jpg

So day one (as an AS method rather than for raising queen cells) you find queen Cells, the Queen and 2 frames of brood go in the bottom brood box (no Queen Cells). Queen Excluder and supers go on top, then the Snelgrove Board and the brood box with the brood. the top entrance is opened, all others are closed. Existing Flying bees exit the top entrance and return to the lower one.

Day 10 you come back, close the front top entrance, open the front lower entrance and back top entrance to bleed new flying bees into the lower box. New flying bees leave the back entrance, return the front and in below the Snelgrove board.

Day 12 either make up nucs with the queen cells or reduce to one and wait for new Queen to start laying and split or re-unite.

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Originally Posted by GRIZZLY

Basically the Horsley board and the Snelgrove board have similar functions i.e. separating the new b.box and supers from the old brood box which is placed on top.With the horsley board you can brush off all the bees from the frames in the upper chamber ...

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Nellie

Right then, This chart might be a useful reference: ...

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Thank you, Grizzly and Nellie. I suppose, Grizzly, it seems that I was on the right track last year when I used a Horsley board when I couldn't find the queen - until a deer knocked the hive over.

An excellent chart and diagrams, Nellie. Thank you so much. I think it's the best drawings explaining Snelgrove I've seen so far. Very helpful.

I think I'm ready for the next season - in my head, anyway. I won't panic, I'll keep it simple, and I have lots of very helpful information to consult.

Thanks,
Kitta