Well it's a start....
http://www.scotsman.com/news/environ...vens-1-3128377
Oh and anyone who looks at the comments will see my exasperated reply to someone describing AMMs as lazy! :mad:
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Well it's a start....
http://www.scotsman.com/news/environ...vens-1-3128377
Oh and anyone who looks at the comments will see my exasperated reply to someone describing AMMs as lazy! :mad:
At last the government has woken up and has done something positive for once.
If there is only one beekeeper on Colonsay how will that work ?
It means no one else can decide to keep Buckfast on the island and wreck 30 years of hard work put in by Andrew with his native stock.
It's ok at the moment, but up to now there was no legal protection to stop some eejit new beekeeper keeping a different sub species on the island.
And it's not the biggest of islands. I don't see it being over-run by beekeepers. And if someone does decide to take it up at least there'll be some assurance for Andrew like you say Jon.
Thought Andrew's letter in the SBA mag this month was spot-on. My fervent hope is that the Colonsay decision is something we can build on and point to as an example to be followed on the mainland in appropriate areas. No reason this has to be an island-only phenomenon with the terrain we have here in Scotland. I have a dream of someday a similar reserve being set up in my neck of the woods say in Glenlivet. And of course elsewhere in Scotland.
Ok but lets say someone on Colonsay other than Andrew Abrahams wants to keep bees
Are they to obtain bees from him or could they bring in AMM bees from Ireland
How are AMM bees defined in this legislation
Presumably all this has been covered in some way
I'll need to have a closer look at the SBA mag to see what the new legislation says on definitions - there's a fairly lengthy quotation of it in there. Unless someone else has it to hand and can answer DR's question first.
Hi Drumgerry
This is the press take on the legislation taken from the BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-24428707
A new law will come into effect in January, making it illegal to import any bee other than the Apis mellifera mellifera to the area.
My novices understanding is that to be certain bees are amm DNA tests are needed.
Is this correct?
I asked a similar question on the other thread, having read the link which Gavin put up I saw no mention of specifically Scottish/British amm. I think that it's great that some effort has been made in this direction -thankfully in an area where no other existing beekeepers will suffer from finding that their colonies are now classed as illegal -during the middle of winter, five or six months before they would realistically have chance of requeening. I wonder whether French/Danish/Dutch amm are deemed to be as good (from a conservation reserve perspective) as Scottish stock for the purposes of the legislation.
That's a bit Stromnessian of you Peter! Still, we didn't ban Doris (for that anyway) so we'll let you off with it too.
Very pushed for time so I'll tidy it late tonight unless someone else gets there first.
Thanks Ems.
Just looked again at the SBA mag piece about Colonsay. The quote from the Order was not very comprehensive it turned out. No mention of a definition of AMM. Surely they must have put one in the legislation!? If not it's a huge oversight. Does anyone have access to the full text of the Order in order to confirm or deny the definition question?
Hi Drumgerry
One of my colonies (definitely not what I would call AMM ) scanned out a 77% AMM could I take that one to Colonsay, varroa and all, or would I be in jail shortly afterwards. ?
I don't get the SBA mag at the moment -- waiting to join again in January :)
Interestingly the Scottish Wildlife and Countryside Act (again, like Scottish politics, Gavin will correct the terminology) makes it illegal to import 'foreign' species ... so taking varroa to Colonsay would be a crime (and a disaster).
I think this is a great development and those of you reading this that had some small part to play in supporting the proposal - directly or indirectly - should be congratulated.
Well done.
Not to sure about that Fatshark as varroa is already in Scotland you might not be importing it
Unless Colonsay is an independent country you would be spreading it possibly
When it comes to spreading invasive species I think the list includes Japanese knotweed perhaps grey squirrels Zander Catfish etc I don't know if varroa is on the list or not.
It might all be covered in the legislation that has been passed
The newspapers often just skim the surface but if AMM are undefined and the restriction only says non AMM can't be taken to Colonsay then that only amounts to a partial protection.
Also If that legislation appears to restrict other residents of the EU from bee keeping on Colonsay then that might run into trouble later as well
Of course that's all nonsense and it won't ever happen but sometimes the waterproof defence is just an illusion
Anyway hooray for the devil and his advocate
Hi DR
The wording on the proposed amendment to the 1981 Act states:
The release of any animal outwith its native range in Scotland is an offence. The release of any honey bee on Colonsay and Oronsay is therefore an offence.
Note that keeping bees is not considered release ...
If you take this to the (il)logical conclusion - the native range of Varroa does not include Colonsay (or thankfully some of the other remote areas). However, there is a possibility that Varroa would be considered an invasive species ... these are again covered under the Act and there are restrictions to their importation.
I agree that the 'devil is in the detail' and hope it is not challenged. What is perhaps more interesting is whether the range could be extended to include other islands (or perhaps other geographically isolated areas) so strengthening the Amm position.
It's good to be positive about a bee-related story in the national press ... other than positive it's rubbish that is ;)
Fatshark you are right let's be positive hope there is possibilities for a full scale AMM breeding station on the Island in due course
Yeah hopefully there's some funding available to Andrew to expand his operation. Can't have him hoarding his precious AMM bees eh?! (reference to Phil's comments re AMM for those non members of the SBA!).
It's a small island and he has 50+ colonies so probably would not support many more.
Maybe he might be interested in learning II techniques to speed up any queen breeding improvements he wants to make. I feel that as we have only one of these reserves we need to throw everything at it to make it the best it can be.
After visiting Andrew back in June he has a pefectly good breeding system already. When I was there a few people were picking up 5 frame nucs in the paynes poly hives. Some were on their way to Ireland to improve their stocks. Some people were picking just up queens. He also overwinters queens in Nucs or in Apideas. Andrew will supply queens but would prefer they go to people who are trying to improve their Amm. It was also mentioned that he supplies beekeepers in Mull and other Amm strongholds which he sees as an extension of Colonsay.
As an added extra if you visit Colonsay it will dispel the myth that Amm are agressive. Andrew has been selective breeding for over 30 years in an enclosed system and the improvements he has made is amazing.
If you are going to visit Andrew he insists you leave all your beekeeping equipment behind and is strong on biosecurity for the Island
I have to say that I wish our president had been to see Andrew's bees before he repeated that stuff on dark bees in the September Scottish Beekeeper. Andrew wrote a cracker of a riposte in the current issue, and mentioned that Phil had witnessed bees at the Robsons in the borders in March which were vigorous and gentle.
Sent from my BlackBerry 8520 using Tapatalk
After visiting Andrews bees It proved to me that if you can get an isolated site and by careful selection and the hard work that Andrew has put in on selection it is possible to breed in good traits to Amm. Most of us are not in that situation. It is very difficult to improve your stocks with other beekeepers not on board and even worse if they are importing other strains of bees into your area.
The bees on Colonsay are well worth protecting and could be a great resource for people wanting to improve their Amm stocks.
Hi Drumgerry,
Andrew uses the cupkit system and sometimes grafts. He produces a lot of queens each year. A possible way forward is to identify other Amm strongholds (Work in progress) and use material from Colonsay to increase or improve the Amm stocks in these areas eg Mull or Orkney and some areas on the mainland and then II from these stocks to increase the Amm areas.
Fair enough Jimbo. If Andrew feels his systems are all they can be that's great. But if he needs help or wants to expand into the realms of II he should have the funding to do so. After all he's doing something truly worthwhile as opposed to a certain other scheme funded to the tune of £200k
I'm not sure I'd want other islands to be forced to keep only pure AMM. My apiary has pure AMMs and also West Coast mongrels. Like any other livestock, the AMMs are a variable bunch. Some are slow to build up - very slow - and don't produce much honey but because of the small numbers are easy to handle and give confidence to beginners. Other AMMs of ours are absolutely cracking colonies which gave a good crop this year and last year. Both varieties of bee and the in-betweenies in our apiary are delightful in spring and summer but require a little more respect at this time of the year.
It's a bit like folk who've only met nervous, nippy collies saying that they're all like that, while others know that a well-adjusted collie, trained properly and allowed to be a collie is the most delightful dog in the world!
BTW, it's not that easy to buy bees from Colonsay, especially if you're a beginner who doesn't want to fork out for a course, accommodation and travel ... then the nuc on top of that!
Hi Trog,
That interesting that you have mongrels on Mull. I have not come across any yet with the samples I have been sent
Jim, some of my samples were more pure AMM than others, weren't they? Mind you, the results from the wing morphometry on some that I'd assumed weren't very AMM because of their yellow colouring seemed to be 'blacker' than they looked. We're taking part in the nosema testing project so should we keep the wings from the frozen samples for you to have a look at? Or perhaps you'd like to come over and do a winter session to show us all how to do it? We have microscopes available.
Kitta, the AMMs seem to be keeping themselves pretty pure - possibly because they mate in worse weather so are perhaps the only ones out and about a lot of the time! They also tend to mate next to the apiary. With this summer having been so hot, it'll be interesting to see how this year's queens' offspring turn out. Maybe they'll be less pure! Certainly there's not much point my trying to get pure matings here as we have a lot of ferals about. Nor would I attempt it; I like the mixtures and, as I said, not all AMMs are lovely in every way!
This might be a slight deviation Trog but I think, and I'm sure anyone who breeds any (I hesitate to say it in relation to bees) livestock thinks, that selection pressure needs to be brought to bear before you can get bees of the type you want. AMMs left to their own devices may not be anything special although they'll likely exhibit traits that we recognise like flying in less than optimum conditions. I'm sure Galtee, although they started with AMMs, had to spend a number of years selecting for temper and productivity to get bees they are happy with (maybe someone with experience of their breeding programme could explain further?). I'd be concerned for the future of AMM as a bee of choice unless we can provide people with good tempered and productive bees. No reason that can't be done - we just have to select for those traits.
The Galtee bees are both docile and productive and that is the fruit over 20 years selection including an II programme.
OK Jon. Here is Andrew's letter.
http://www.sbai.org.uk/images/Andrew1.jpeg
http://www.sbai.org.uk/images/Andrew2.jpeg
[QUOTE=The Drone Ranger;21667]Hi Drumgerry
This is the press take on the legislation taken from the BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-scotlan...-west-24428707
What a pity the BBC chose to have a picture of a hybrid!
Pity the BBC used a picture of a hybrid - and got the wording wrong!
The consultation documents including all the responses are available here:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Topics/En...eeconsultation
Having spent all day at the computer answering emails in respect of the SBA I can assure you that the last thing I wished to do at this time of the morning (0220 hrs) was to once again comment on incorrect assertions which people make about me.
In the September SBA magazine I wrote:
“I will however respond about the rearing of local black bees in Scotland. I have discussed this type of bee with many older and extremely experienced beekeepers who indicated that they would not wish to work with them again. Their experience was that the bees, though very frugal were slow to build up, usually not even tempered and although producing honey in many different climatic conditions were not so appropriate for our present day farming.
That having been said, it is the interest of some beekeepers to rear and promote this type of honeybee today and that should be applauded and encouraged as in the case of the SBA support of the Colonsay Project.
It has been my experience however that those who appear to have this bee are very unwilling to produce them in quantity and disseminate them to others. I personally have tried on occasions to purchase a stock and have always been unable to do so.”
The question I ask myself is, where in these comments am I, quote: “rubbishing the black bee as not worth bothering about” as, stated by Andrew Abrahams?
The experience I have had with a friend’s bees, which, after wing morphometry appeared to be Amm, was exactly as I wrote and from the posts here, is the same experience as commented by Trog. Further to that and far more impressive as far as experience is concerned is that this is the view expressed by very experienced beekeepers whom I have spoken with including one who has held an NDB qualification for many years and worked with Amm. This is not to say that all Amm bees are alike. They vary as do every type of bee but the experience of those, I have spoken to was, that they were a bee for the clover and heather crop in particular.
This in no way “rubbishes” the Amm bee but purely comments that they are not all alike. Surely that holds good for every race of bee.
In respect of farming practices is concerned, there have been huge changes in recent years. Crops, boundaries, hedges, set aside, fertilisers, wild meadows etc have all caused an issue for our honeybees and unfortunately have to be taken into account in our beekeeping practices.
In respect of Andrew’s comment quote: “advice is merely the prejudice of others”
There is a world of difference between “advice” and “experience.” I learned a huge amount from an old mentor who had a vast amount of beekeeping “experience” and never once evidenced any “prejudice”.
In respect of trying to obtain Amm colonies, I can truthfully say that I tried to buy bees from Andrew and others with no success. I discussed this at length one evening recently with Andrew and spoke about the fact that those with them should be involved in more breeding programmes if they wish to strongly promote their use. When it comes to having a desire to see Amm reintroduced to areas, selling nucleus colonies is not the way to bring it about. Utilising stock to accompany a queen is a waste of resources. Whereas utilising that same stock to rear queens has a far greater potential. This does have mating difficulties in many parts of the UK and Instrumental Insemination brings about a greater potential of success in the professional’s hands.
In respect of Andrew’s kind invitation I have agreed to go to Colonsay next year and am very sure that I will experience quality stock. Having discussed with Andrew photographic images from the past I am very sure that there were days gone by when colonies, of whatever race, were extremely calm and pleasant to work with and the colonies on Colonsay may well be the same.
My comments were expressed in an article written originally about the importation of honeybees and should be read in that context. Anyone who knows me, knows that I have the greatest respect for all races of honeybees. I don’t believe they are all appropriate for all locations and some have qualities better than others but I have never expressed views, which “rubbish” any type of honeybee, and I certainly object to that assertion.
Just for clarification in respect of the Colonsay, Oronsay project is concerned, I with others on behalf of the SBA executive attended meetings at Edinburgh and there sought to support this project. I discussed various aspects in relation to practical legal issues and gauging from the posts in this discussion my comments have come to pass. There is a difficulty in providing an exact legal definition of Amm and from the coverage of the act it appears that someone with Amm bees from any location can take them onto the two islands. I am aware that Andrew would wish this to be different and I support him in that view, however the legalities of the situation may provide a difficulty if challenged. I do trust however that this does not come to pass and that Andrew is able in time to work with the stock he has on the island.
The legislation can be found at the following site:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/20...0130279_en.pdf
As an aside, the SBA as an organisation recommends that local good quality stock should be used for rearing colonies.
Phil McAnespie
Having spent all day at the computer answering emails in respect of the SBA I can assure you that the last thing I wished to do at this time of the morning (0220 hrs) was to once again comment on incorrect assertions which people make about me.
In the September SBA magazine I wrote:
“I will however respond about the rearing of local black bees in Scotland. I have discussed this type of bee with many older and extremely experienced beekeepers who indicated that they would not wish to work with them again. Their experience was that the bees, though very frugal were slow to build up, usually not even tempered and although producing honey in many different climatic conditions were not so appropriate for our present day farming.
That having been said, it is the interest of some beekeepers to rear and promote this type of honeybee today and that should be applauded and encouraged as in the case of the SBA support of the Colonsay Project.
It has been my experience however that those who appear to have this bee are very unwilling to produce them in quantity and disseminate them to others. I personally have tried on occasions to purchase a stock and have always been unable to do so.”
The question I ask myself is, where in these comments am I, quote: “rubbishing the black bee as not worth bothering about” as, stated by Andrew Abrahams?
The experience I have had with a friend’s bees, which, after wing morphometry appeared to be Amm, was exactly as I wrote and from the posts here, is the same experience as commented by Trog. Further to that and far more impressive as far as experience is concerned is that this is the view expressed by very experienced beekeepers whom I have spoken with including one who has held an NDB qualification for many years and worked with Amm. This is not to say that all Amm bees are alike. They vary as do every type of bee but the experience of those, I have spoken to was, that they were a bee for the clover and heather crop in particular.
This in no way “rubbishes” the Amm bee but purely comments that they are not all alike. Surely that holds good for every race of bee.
In respect of farming practices is concerned, there have been huge changes in recent years. Crops, boundaries, hedges, set aside, fertilisers, wild meadows etc have all caused an issue for our honeybees and unfortunately have to be taken into account in our beekeeping practices.
In respect of Andrew’s comment quote: “advice is merely the prejudice of others”
There is a world of difference between “advice” and “experience.” I learned a huge amount from an old mentor who had a vast amount of beekeeping “experience” and never once evidenced any “prejudice”.
In respect of trying to obtain Amm colonies, I can truthfully say that I tried to buy bees from Andrew and others with no success. I discussed this at length one evening recently with Andrew and spoke about the fact that those with them should be involved in more breeding programmes if they wish to strongly promote their use. When it comes to having a desire to see Amm reintroduced to areas, selling nucleus colonies is not the way to bring it about. Utilising stock to accompany a queen is a waste of resources. Whereas utilising that same stock to rear queens has a far greater potential. This does have mating difficulties in many parts of the UK and Instrumental Insemination brings about a greater potential of success in the professional’s hands.
In respect of Andrew’s kind invitation I have agreed to go to Colonsay next year and am very sure that I will experience quality stock. Having discussed with Andrew photographic images from the past I am very sure that there were days gone by when colonies, of whatever race, were extremely calm and pleasant to work with and the colonies on Colonsay may well be the same.
My comments were expressed in an article written originally about the importation of honeybees and should be read in that context. Anyone who knows me, knows that I have the greatest respect for all races of honeybees. I don’t believe they are all appropriate for all locations and some have qualities better than others but I have never expressed views, which “rubbish” any type of honeybee, and I certainly object to that assertion.
Just for clarification in respect of the Colonsay, Oronsay project is concerned, I with others on behalf of the SBA executive attended meetings at Edinburgh and there sought to support this project. I discussed various aspects in relation to practical legal issues and gauging from the posts in this discussion my comments have come to pass. There is a difficulty in providing an exact legal definition of Amm and from the coverage of the act it appears that someone with Amm bees from any location can take them onto the two islands. I am aware that Andrew would wish this to be different and I support him in that view, however the legalities of the situation may provide a difficulty if challenged. I do trust however that this does not come to pass and that Andrew is able in time to work with the stock he has on the island.
The legislation can be found at the following site:
http://www.legislation.gov.uk/ssi/20...0130279_en.pdf
As an aside, the SBA as an organisation recommends that local good quality stock should be used for rearing colonies.
Phil McAnespie
Great news -I'd previously thought (based on the excellent article which he wrote about Tasmanian beekeeping for Bibba) that he may have been the unnamed person mentioned in this thread here:
http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/sh...ns-for-imports
Which of course would have blasted a hole right through the spirit of the scheme. Glad to hear that it's not him after all.Quote:
Was chatting to a well known AMM breeder on a island up north,even he was thinking about importing some breeder queens, either from Denmark or Tasmania