Large Format Brood Boxes

It is generally reckoned that the standard National/Smith (& even more so WBC) broodbox is rather small for a strong laying Queen and for holding enough food to take a colony through a hard winter. This has led to beekeepers adopting the box and a half system (a brood box and a super full of brood frames -needs different size brood frames), double deeps (22 brood frames to examine) and various other rather awkward solutions.

There are alternatives to double boxes and it would be interesting to hear of beekeepers experiences of them.

There is an extra deep version of the National (Smith/WBC) frame called the 14 X 12 -the numbers referring to the National frames width of 14" and the extra depth of 12" (compared to a Standard National Deep frame which is 81/2" deep). The brood box is either constructed to suit or standard brood boxes can be increased in depth by adding a 31/2" addition. 11 of these frames give about 45% extra brood space compared to a standard National 11 frames. Similarly for a Smith (WBC's hold 10 frames).
A move to 14 x 10's only affects Brood frames and Brood boxes - all other equipment is standard
Some users have said that these ultra deep 14 x 12 frames are a bit awkward to handle & that the bees are reluctant to draw such deep frames. Any direct experiences?

We converted our Smith hives about 10 yrs ago from box and half to using British Commercial frames (16" x !0" deep). 10 of these frames can be packaged the long way in the hive by adding 11/2" depth to the brood box. The brood frames are then of course at right angles to the Super frames above the Q excluder, but the bees don't seem to mind.
This gives a brood area about 26% larger than a standard National or Smith deep and a few % larger than a Lanstroth .
Again this change only affected brood frames and brood boxes, all other equipment stayed the same. An added advantage is that a standard Smith frame can be inserted into a Commercial by cutting two small grooves in the side bar, giving a certain amount of interchange ability/ease of conversion.
The main advantage is that only 10 frames need to be gone through in an examination and of course there is ample room for winter stores. Staying with the Smith Supers limits the lifting effort needed for full supers.
The same move can be made from standard National hives although it’s not possible to insert a National frame with its long lugs inside a Commercial frame.


The original large format hive is of course the Langstroth and it is perhaps a pity that the Brits could not have swallowed their pride in the 19th century and simply adopted it as their standard.
Moving from British equipment to Langstroth is mighty expensive as it means a complete replacement of equipment.

The British Commercial hive gives even more space and is near enough to the plan area of a National to interchange floors, Queen excluders, cover boards and roofs.
abr

I've just started to experiment with 14x12 brood chambers. So far I've not had a frame of stores so they're not unduly awkward in my experience so far, I'll let you know how I get one once they've finished drawing the frames and are packing stores in there rather than brood. I will say that a 14x12 frame laid corner to corner with brood is a pretty impressive sight though.

What I do like about them so far is that I simply added an eke to my standard national brood boxes, if in the end I (or the bees) really don't get on with them then I can just take the ekes off and go back to standard National brood boxes.

Looking at what the rest of europe pays for frames compared to us, I think you might have a point about langstroth gear!

[edit] The one thing I have learned so far around 14x12 boxes is that the frames are a P.I.T.A to put together compared to a National or Super frame. I might just have a batch of frames that Thornes weren't sure whether to chuck in the seconds pile, but on a more general basis if I can pass on one tip around 14x12 Frames:

Don't nail/pin the Bottom bar until after you've put the foundation in, put it in and leave it unpinned until the foundation is in the frame. You're far more likely to need to adjust the width at the bottom of the frames on a 14x12 than you are on a Standard National or Super frame. I have a tendency to part assemble frames when I've got nothing better to do and add the foundation later. Fortunately I'd only made up a couple of frames, but I had to pull out the bottom bars and remove the pins to fit the foundation.

I haven't tried 14x12s myself but I know a man who has. The bees seemed happy in them but were not using all the frames in the box. I could see the advantage for some of the more vigorous types of bee or more productive areas, but then again I do like the ability to switch between one and two normal sized brood boxes as it gives flexibility when raising new colonies. Also you can come down again to one normal-sized box when required, and have a less difficult job taking bees to the heather.

I do see though that your modified Smith hives make sense. Of course, another way would just be to move over to bigger capacity hives such as Commercials or Langstroths?

Happy to listen to all suggestions though.

14x12 see my post in Single box beekeeping or not.

I've got one 14 x 12 which I have had for a year. The frames were drawn out OK by the autumn when winter stores were going in. I am still not sure as all my other hives are standard 14 x 8.5" BS nationals. (Fortunately I made a 14 x 12 nuc for when they were ready to swarm at 8 full frames of brood). I've just been reading a book by Brother Adam who says that one large brood box gives better honey yield than two smaller ones.

I do find the frames a bit cumbersome and even with wire in the comb you do need to be careful when holding them. A frame full of capped stores is heavy and I had to destroy one when the thing fell apart as the nails fpulled through the wooden top bar. (Maybe it's my fault for using seconds). Inspection is definitely quicker so I might make a second box out of plywood and pop it in a WBC and see if I get to like them.

One beek friend uses MD's and swears by them.

I used 16 x 10 hives "down south" as only the brood box needs to be this size - floor,super , crown board and roof are conventional national bits.The short lugs on the frames take some getting used to but I found that the frames were always nicely drawn out into every corner.Up here in Scotland I find my bees are not so prolific and have reverted to standard nationals.If I get a very prolific queen then I will revert back to my Commercials.Ted Hooper also reccomends 16 x 10 in his book ( my early copy ) I don't know if this is still so in up-to-date copies.The thought of double brood or brood and a half to cope with strong colonies seems like a lot of hassle to me.I recon the 14 x 12 is just a bit too deep and as Adam said could be prone to damage on hot days when the wax is soft.Thornes supply 16 x 10 adaptors for the national running the commercial frames the other way across the hive.I dont see the point tho' as this reduces the brood capacity almost back to that of a standard national.The adaptor fits on top of the brood chamber locating into the lug recesses ,it is, like a lot of Thornes equipment,quite expensive tho' very well made.

Very useful feedback.
16 x 10 Commercial frames sound better to handle than the deeper 14 x 12's
Ten 16 x 10 frames in a Smith or National gives about 26% more space than the standard 11 frames in a National or Smith & slightly more space than a standard Langstroth
Alan

There's a beek local to me who has a couple of Commercials and they do seem a good option especially considering they will take a National super. Doible brood is a pain really but sometimes necessary.
One colony of mine has never got larger than 6 frames of brood (Nationals) and is piling the honey in and doing really well for a relatively small colony. As Grizzly states, you need to match the bees to the box. I made a couple of 16 frame nationals (for fun) which haven't yet proven their worth - being too wide when bees would produce a vertical oval-shaped nest in the wild.
I have a sale for one of my nus to a new beek who wants to put them in a warre hive - 12" square and no frames, just top bars every 10" or so; It will be interesting to find out how he gets on.