The Scottish Government have a news release here: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Rele...eybees06062013
which includes this report on last year's surveillance exercise:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00423966.pdf
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The Scottish Government have a news release here: http://www.scotland.gov.uk/News/Rele...eybees06062013
which includes this report on last year's surveillance exercise:
http://www.scotland.gov.uk/Resource/0042/00423966.pdf
I participated in the survey and had the bee inspector look at my bees last year and sent a floor insert off to be analysed. Right now I'm pretty annoyed and won't participate in another of these. It's a bit rich to be using a survey of amateur beekeepers to justify the £200k subsidy to bee farmers. Where's the help we need? I've said it many times before but the money would be better spent on improving our beekeeping infrastructure - something to benefit us all rather than what will likely be mass imports doomed to die out next winter
Felt like saying - hey, steady on there - but no. You are right. Mr Lochhead used a survey of amateur beekeepers to justify throwing money at commercial beekeepers so that they can import lots of foreign bees. The survey seemed to give low losses amongst the survey amateurs in Tayside, yet that is where many, perhaps most, of the imported stocks are going - some of them presumably to an operation that showed a truly shocking level of losses. And yes, that was in Tayside too. [Edit - not actually true, S Aberdeenshire]
However the real position is that losses here have been high-ish, and the apparent low losses is probably due to a small number of beekeepers being sampled. I'm one and my losses were pretty average. Our association is now collecting its own data on losses locally and maybe we'll be able to say something more definitive soon.
There is a lot that is wrong there. Perhaps the first thing to do is to ensure that the leadership of the SBA are well aware of this disquiet, and realise that they should be lobbying for things to be very different in future. Are they? What did you think of Phil's comment in the magazine alongside the announcement of the Scottish Government import subsidy?
However .... the bee health survey is a good thing, no? With good people running it. It is just a great pity that it has been used it to justify something that will be to the detriment of beekeeping as a whole in Scotland - and not something with real lasting benefit.
Maybe it is time to have that chat you were planning with Richard Lochhead.
Here's an interesting piece on the beekeeping of the 65 beekeepers sampled:
'Most beekeepers (58%) manage a small number of colonies (five or fewer); a statistic reflected by
data gathered on BeeBase. Only five of the beekeepers questioned (8%) managed 20 or more
colonies (Figure 2). When asked about their plans for the future, half (49%) planned to increase
the number of colonies managed, and only 5% planned to reduce their apiary size. When
replenishing stocks, most (71%) source their bees locally using either their own breeding
programme or local suppliers, and only 3% had bought bees from overseas.'
Only 3% (ie two) had bought bees from overseas.
'These figures equate to a total overwintering loss of
11% colonies across Scotland during 2011-12 and 32% during 2012-13 (Figure 4).'
So why are folk claiming that more than half the bees in Scotland have died? Is that because the commercial losses are (bucking the trend internationally) worse than the hobbyists?
Also, the Dundee University/SBA survey reports dramatic losses in the hobby sector. 30% was it (in 2011-12)? Much larger than this survey would suggest, near enough three fold in fact. The data in the SG report come from a random sample of BeeBase registrations whereas the Dundee University stuff comes from self-reporting from those motivated enough to send their returns to Dundee University. Interesting contrast.
I don't see mention of Fife in the SG report. Wasn't that an area singled out by C Connolly for its particularly high rate of losses?
I think losses have been high Gavin
Several folk have approached me about bees saying they lost most or all of their bees
Although they would hardly ring me to say they had plenty bees, I suppose :)
Gavin I confess to severe bemusement at Phil's comment in the magazine that "hobby beekeepers....already get the benefit of EU money from the CAP system". Eh?! What am I missing here? If there's money coming from the EU where is it and where is it going? Or is he just referring to the "benefit" we get from cheaper food prices, along with the rest of the population, from farming subsidies? Do we get our SBA insurance subsidised by the EU? Is that it? In any case there seems to be money for anyone who can lobby hard enough as in this case so why don't the SBA pull their finger out and do likewise?
And as to why the SBA aren't screaming from the rooftops about this £200k subsidy and the consequent imports again I'm at a loss. We need someone to get hold of the politicians and tell them they've got it all wrong. That we need money for something long term and not money to just flush down the bee farmers toilet. From where I'm sitting I can't see much being done. Has anything negative about this subsidy been said by the SBA?
And yes my contact with the minister is being initiated as we speak!
Bee health survey - a good thing yes. But I will not participate again if all it's going to be used for is to justify some puff scheme to bail out commercial operators who have shown time and again they don't have the long term interests of Scotlands bees and beekeepers at heart.
Could it be the hobby beekeeper benefit is oil seed rape subsidy ?
Which of course we pay for, and farmers receive and spend on our behalf, saving us the trouble
There's a lot to be thankful for :)
DR - If that's the benefit we get from the CAP then I'm laughing out loud. I really am. That would simply be a ridiculous stretch of the truth to say we're benefiting in that way. Plus there's not a peck of OSR in Strathspey till you get to the absolute lower reaches. I'm sure it's the same for a lot of Highland beekeepers.
Maybe it helps to fund the bee inspectors and SASA or SAC? All of great benefit to hobby beekeepers.
And even more of a benefit to commercial beekeepers if the presentation on the foulbrood outbreaks by our bee inspector is anything to go by. By the sounds of it most of at least one summer spent by a team of inspectors looking at many hundreds of commercial beekeepers' hives in Aberdeenshire, Angus and the Highlands - the costs met by the taxpayer must have run into 10s of thousands.
I agree with you Drumgerry therefor I can only conclude that our glorious leader has slipped his leash (only Kidding Phil)
I don't mean it to seem like I'm trying to make Phil a scapegoat for this £200k subsidy. I'm really not. It just beggars belief that the politicians could have got this so wrong and no-one from the SBA is saying anything (at least till I can make contact with Richard Lochhead!). And all off the back of some effective lobbying.
Just because things don't necessarily go the way we might want doesn't mean folk aren't negotiating, lobbying and the rest in the background, surely?
That's an optimistic take on things Trog and I hope you're right. But the silence on this issue has been deafening. And that comment about hobby beekeepers and the CAP is not very helpful - sorry Phil. Maybe it needs a statement from the SBA on just what, if anything, is being done on our behalf. Communication with the membership is not a strong point it must be said.
The bee farmers Ass is pretty powerful it seems
Drumgerry is right though there is an assumption that any spending on beekeeping should be welcomed
Unfortunately that's not true in the case of spending Gov cash on businesses who could insure themselves
When the lay person reads £200K is going to bee Farmers they rightly think "what the Heck's that all about"
Employment -- no
Exports no -- imports yes
Pollination benefits - no
Community -no
Fact is there are no benefits to the Scottish economy whatsoever just a few individuals so it should be opposed
If the cash is to be spent it should go to something useful and beneficial to Scotland and Bees
Why isn't the SBA as powerful I wonder?
Pretty much in agreement with you there DR. Bee farming does provide a few jobs though - maybe 50 or so Scotland-wide? Most seasonal. Not £200k subsidy's worth. Maybe a bit of pollination benefit as well. And doesn't Murray sell his honey to packers so not a distinctive Scottish product being produced there.
And I think you've hit the nail on the head with "there is an assumption that any spending on beekeeping should be welcomed". To the politicians they've done their bit. They've helped the bees. They get to say so to the bee-hungry media. Never mind they've probably done the equivalent of using twenty pound notes to light your smoker.
£200k could have achieved so much with a bit of vision behind it. Sad.:(
Whoops...think I might be turning into Doris with all the bold bits in the last post! :rolleyes:
Not at all
Gosh I wish a £200K queen rearing project was funded where I could buy expertly bred and raised local(ish) queens for £15 or so
Now I suspect someone is going to say form a local breeding group :)
I have one of those
The members include me and errrr?? me
Plus everybody elses drones LoL:)
Perhaps an ideal position would be if the Gov consulted the SBA more and the SBA consulted its members
I wonder why HOBBY beekeepers expect to be subsidised by the government at all? It's one thing for folk who make their living in agriculture (and bee farming is an agricultural activity) to receive subsidies like all the other farmers but would one expect the government to fund the Dr Who Appreciation Society, the Morris Minor Owners Club, the Spaniel Breeders' Association? Yes, our activities are beneficial to the environment but on that basis I would expect payouts for my lovely wildflower meadows, recycling habits and much more.
Also worth remembering that the SBA is run by VOLUNTEERS, many of whom are also heavily involved in their local associations, teaching, mentoring new beekeepers, trying to run their own apiaries while raising nucs to help beginners ... and some even have full-time jobs and family to look after.
I don't think anyone is suggesting we get subsidised Trog. But don't you agree that there has to be an overall strategy for Scotland's bees? And who is to implement that strategy if not the people with the right experience ie hobby beekeepers? If you think that we can just leave it all to people's goodwill and voluntaryism then we're clearly not on the same page. The Scottish government think that Scotland's bees are worth investing in - so why not go about it in a way that benefits all of Scotland's beekeepers rather than a handful of commercial operators?
And the SBA are our national beekeeping body. I pay my £30 a year and I have a right to a say in how things proceed. Democracy at work and all that. If I think not enough is being done am I not entitled to say that? Should I just shut up and accept everything that happens because the committee is made up of volunteers?
And btw - all of those things you listed I'm doing myself with the added complication of a disabled child. So I know all about putting the work in for a greater good.
Hi Trog
I think when Government spends money the general idea is seed money
The idea of subsidy or cash injections is that the economy or society benefits from it
Otherwise they could just buy me a new car because I need one and have a farm number for my smallholding
So commercial Beekeeping might have a case but it's not a strong one
It wont generate employment, economic activity, or social benefits and with no strings attached will benefit New Zealand far more than UK
Sadly the interests of Bee Farming and beekeepers generally are not in line.
Some beekeepers want a return to the fabled black bee of yesteryear
Some Just want the local bees to prevail and disease risk etc minimised
Me I just want the quiet life and a cure for chalkbrood :)
Of course Bee farming activities don't, won't, can't align with that (take you pick)
So it is best to say that rather than be dragged reluctantly into supporting subsidies just because beekeeping is involved we feel we should
If SBA campaigned for a ban on imports, and it looked like succeeding The Bee Farmers Association would be the first to say nay and thrice nay
If the outcomes were positive for Scotland's economy, and beekeeping in general I think most people would be happy enough to see it happen
another long boring post by me --don't you just hate it when that happens :)
PS I don't pay my £30 a year anymore so, although I can express disappointment, I have already voted with my feet as they say
Well, guys, rather than moaning about perceived lack of action by SBA, here's a suggestion. Go online and look for any subsidies/concessions/aid available to crofters who are, to a large extent, hobby farmers. Is there anything there we could use to make a case for SG help for hobby beekeepers? A bit of creative lateral thinking is in order perhaps.
For myself, having come indoors to cool off after hauling the shopping up the hill, I'm away to weed the shallots before the midges get any worse!
These .... things .... take .... time. SG doesn't move quickly. Negotiations can be long and drawn out. Perhaps as an Islander I have learned to be patient and not get all hot and bothered if I don't get what I want immediately! Just trying to add another angle to the debate.
Hey Trog we're all entitled to our point of view and that includes you!:)
Patience.....hmmmm. Not sure about that. The reason we're talking about this just now and the reason something needs done now is this £200k which has been announced. I think that things have been drifting for many years or even decades. We've been muddling along and relying on people's generosity with their time and effort. But we're at a moment where with a bit of vision and funding things could be made better for everyone. That needs to come from the SBA and government. People like me jumping up and down and asking for it to happen isn't going to cut it I don't think. Having said that if I lived in the Central Belt and had different family circumstances I'd get involved with the SBA and take an active hand in this. I do what I can in my own way but that's about it.
So.....unless I can think of anything more which I can usefully add I'll drop out of this thread as I feel I've made my thoughts pretty clear now!
Earthing up potatoes for me today
Bad news is rain is helping all the weed seedlings re-root now
Re the SBA and being active in running it etc I think it was Churchill who said
" They also serve who only sit and pay"
OK, Drumgerry, what do you want money for? And I mean your association as we can't expect SG to hand out money to individuals. How much do you need?
As for being more involved, distance is no object - just check out the magazine to see where the ICT convener, bee health convener and a couple of area reps live! The AGM was available on Skype this year. All the email addresses are on the inside front page, too, so you can contact anyone you fancy talking to. You could even write to the magazine to get your views aired more widely than in here.
[Trog - trying to be helpful and constructive ...]
Ok Trog...I guess I have to add something!
You maybe missed the bit where I said I have a disabled child and the limits that places on how involved I can get. I am involved at a local level and this year helped to start a new association in my area.
I don't want any money! It's not about the money (cue Jessie J!). Well it is a bit. I've said this all before on the forum so I'm going to repeat myself - sorry. My preference is for a strategy to be developed and implemented which gets us to a point where in Scotland we become self-sufficient in bees. Sounds a bit vague maybe. The specific sorts of things I want to happen are the choice to be made at a Scottish government and SBA level to do everything we can to help our native bees. At a practical level the sort of stuff I'd like to see in place are the setting up of queen breeding stations for the breeding of native bees and the proper provision of training and equipment to associations or individuals (not sure what the problem is with individuals getting such help) to allow them to breed queens and produce nucs. Not something which can happen overnight I accept but to take steps in that direction and to make the choice that it's the way to go needs to happen now.
Oh it'll never happen I can hear people saying but they do it in Germany and Switzerland for example so why not here? The simple fact is that things are not working at the moment. Winter losses are high and there are no bees to replace them and no systems in place to provide bees. So the commercial guys import what they need. And beginners buy nucs headed by Buckfasts or Carnies bred in mainland Europe. Something needs to change and here's the Scottish government throwing £200k at a situation which will not be solved by such a short term solution. If next winter's as bad the Bee Farmers Association will be lobbying for help again.
I suspect that my views are being aired widely enough on this forum and I don't want to get involved in a "letters page" slanging match. They are tiresome to read and wasteful of magazine space!
So there you have it. My plan to solve Scotland's beekeeping ills! :)
Drumgerry, you're preaching to the converted as far as I'm concerned. I personally think you have a good idea and would love you to write what you've just posted - and a bit more - and send it in as a letter to the magazine. That has a much wider readership than here (sorry Gavin!). If you have more you want to say, make it into an article and submit that. I do appreciate the limitations of being tied to home for whatever reason but these days with the internet we're a lot less isolated than we used to be. You could write to anyone on the Exec or your area rep, or the whole lot. Meanwhile there's plenty of money out there for local associations to get going with breeding local bees - it just takes someone with the time and energy to set it up and keep it going, the latter being the hardest bit!
Aye you're right Trog. Maybe I should. At least it would make a change from the endless exchanges between Eric and A N Other about pesticides. To me this is the real issue facing Scotland's bees. Not Neonics, not GM crops not CCD - red herrings all. If we were self sufficient and had a thriving bee breeding scenario where it was one of the things you learn in your first season as a beekeeper rather than the perception of it as a mysterious dark art - then things could only be better for all of us. Maybe I'm just a dreamer (cue John Lennon this time!) but I hope I'm not the only one - lol!
The right breeding stock is important as well though and that's a difficult problem
To get better bees you probably need several elements, location, foundation stock, skill, and commitment
Primarily bees that are gentle (easy) productive (not so easy) disease resistant (tricky)
If you also include Wing plots and the restriction the bees must be locally sourced
Then mating conditions that favour them staying that way without being located in a bee keeping desert
So all that can be and is being done but not in many locations
Hence the reason that many people call for bee imports to be curtailed
That sounds a bit doom and gloom but it's not meant to be I am with Drumgerry it needs an overall strategy
Gerry, let's ensure that at the November Council meeting (you can attend by Skype if you prefer, but in person would be ideal) there is a proper discussion and vote on: a) SBA policy on native and near-native honeybees, and b) SBA policy on imports by members, by LAs and by bee farmers. Maybe we can start the discussion in the magazine. Trog is right about it being the vehicle to reach the membership.
Actually the variation within AMM populations is much greater than the variation between them so that is not strictly true.
Quote:
In the present paper, we have shown that several relatively
pure populations of A. m. mellifera
still exist in northwest Europe. These populations are genetically quite homogenous
as most of their genetic variation occurs within popula-
tions and not between populations.
Molecular Ecology (2005) 14
Varying degrees of Apis mellifera ligustica introgression in
protected populations of the black honeybee, Apis mellifera
mellifera, in northwest Europe
ANNETTE B. JENSEN et al
Yesteryear!!Quote:
Some beekeepers want a return to the fabled black bee of yesteryear
To paraphrase Gerry Adams, and contradict the brother Adam, who claimed Isle of Wight disease wiped out the native bee population, AMM never went away you know.
And parts of Scotland are still strongholds - in areas where the commercial beekeepers or the fast buck nuc sellers have not wrecked local breeding efforts by swamping the area with imports.
Do you not think the 200k would have been better spent on some bee research like the varroa knockout gene work at Aberdeen or to extend the pilot study of Acarine in the Scottish bee population or used to help with plotting of the Amm areas or varroa free areas in Scotland and to protect these areas with some publicity material or some DNA/Wing morphometry work to identify the pure bee stocks or to help fund the introduction of a bee keeping module into the undergraduate vet degree courses like Glasgow University is trying to do to make vets more aware about beekeeping and beekeeping treatments. There are lots of other ideas that I am certain researchers and scientists could come up with and which the SBA could also be involved in.
Gavin you must be faced with the problem of improving stocks in an area flooded by imports and random crossing
Grafting helps but only Artificial Insemination would give the ESBA apiary a fighting chance
Whats your take on getting suitable foundation material does it have to be local (how close is local)
If you get stocks you are happy with how can you retain the qualities of those founders when all around the migratory beekeeping is filling the sky with drones you don't want
It would seem the main area of imports is commercial so are they the key can they operate without importing queens ?
Right guys I've taken the plunge and sent a letter to Nigel at the magazine. Slight about face on my part but there you go. This lady is for turning!
http://youtu.be/s-ComIRIxMQ
I can probably make a one off Perth meeting in person Gavin. And you can probably tell I feel quite strongly about this!
Cheers, Gerry (a bloke!)
Amen to that Jimbo.
We are looking at ideas for our long term strategy in the Irish Native bee group and if we had £200,000 on the table, I imagine we could develop quite an interesting programme.
Giving that amount of money to commercial beefarmers to make good recent winter losses with imports is a scandal.
What questions were asked about why their losses were so high? - before awarding that amount of taxpayer money?
As someone pointed out earlier, 'save the bees' is flavour of the month and there is a distinct sense of jumping on the bandwagon by ignorant politicians here.
Ok lets say that's true my questions would be
In an area where imports are common and ongoing year after year can bee keepers buy queens from a breeder in an AMM rich location although that is not local
Once the queen is installed what method exists to stop subsequent daughter queens from out crossing with unsuitable drones
That's the basic problem and the only route out is to stop importing and allow bee populations first to normalise then allow queen sales across Scotland not just from the next door beekeeper