Lazy Queen !

[darlo]

Hi folks, I have a question about a hive I have with what can only be described as a lazy queen. At the start of the year she was sitting on a frame of brood, and was slow to build up, very slow to be honest and even now is only on three frames of brood.

She is last years queen, and the really confusing thing for me is that the workers have made no attempt to supersede her. They actually seem quite happy with her production rate and not even play cups have been found.

Has anyone experienced this situation before? I don't have the option to swap her yet, but to be honest I'm almost tempted to let her carry on and see how she fairs over the winter.

[Rosie]

Could it be that they struggled through the winter and emerged with a low number of surviving workers? The queen will only lay at a rate that suits the brooding capability of the workforce so once the numbers fall below some critical limit recovery is always painfully slow. The other cause could also be an infection such as nosema.

I usually leave an apparently struggling colony because often they reach their peak just in time for the heather and they have taken no looking after in the meantime.

Steve

[chris]

What I call my selfish colonies- they always make just enough honey for their own needs and never give me a drop. I usually have one or two plodding along. They survive for a few years, and then just dwindle away. I always leave them alone, but then I don't believe in weakening strong colonies in order to just, maybe, help a slow one to become average. Perhaps yours, like Rosie's, will pick up with a good flow.

[Jon]

Is the brood pattern good, ie not full of gaps.

[darlo]

It's true, they were one of the weaker colonies going into the winter, and in all honesty I was surprised they made it through. They did struggle in the early weeks of spring, more so than the others, but even a couple of those didn't look too spectacular compared to now, so i suspect Rosie may well be right, as over the past month the number of brood has increased. As for the pattern of brood, well I would say its fairly normal in shape, just the spread or quantity is lacking. Its not in small patches over the frame, but a good spherical shape in the centre of the frames.

Is it worth an extra feed of syrup or not?

[gavin]

Sounds very like a colony without enough workers which went through a near-death experience. If the colony's problem was not something like a Nosema-infected queen, it could have been Varroa or a number of other things. At three frames of brood it still has a lot of building to do to overwinter well, or possibly even bring in a late crop of Himalayan balsam if you have that in your area.

Yes, best feed it to help it come up to strength.

[darlo]

Thanks All, I will give it some syrup tomorrow. I don't expect it to produce a crop, but if it can get through the winter better this year, maybe I can use it for next year.

[Adam]

If the colony is too small for the hive, putting them in a nuc would help them build up. A 6 frame polystyrene nuc can be good for this. With it's good insulation properties the bees can increase the brood numbers and get up to speed quicker. Once they are bursting in the nuc, they'll be better suited to a full sized hive.

[darlo]

Sounds like a plan. Where can I get the poly nucs?

[gavin]

Paynes (http://www.paynesbeefarm.co.uk/nuc-mating-hives/).

There are useful tips here (http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/showthread.php?527-Using-the-new-polynucs) from Fatshark and others.

Colonies do seem to winter well in them.

G.

[Adam]

I've got a couple of these nucs and bees seem to do well in them. As the weather was good last autumn (good weather is something I vaguely recall from the dim and distant past), the two colonies that I had planned to over-winter in them were moved to bigger hives as they had done so well. I've just moved one colony on from a Paynes nuc - it had expanded really very well with brood on all 6 frames; just one side of one frame didn't have any brood as it was full of stores. I KNOW this lot will swarm quite early next spring as I know the queen's mother!

[gavin]

I should warn you that kind of stock is quite capable of swarming in August, even with space in a full-sized brood box and, apparently, a first year queen! Maybe Feckless Drone (most inappropriate name) can expand or correct.

The difference between casts I have seen this summer in Paynes boxes and wooden National nucs is stark - clearly the cool weather has been taking its toll on the colonies in the less well insulated boxes.

One comment on the Paynes boxes is that although it seems like a good idea to stuff fondant into the feeder compartment, it really isn't. Bees drown on the wet surface. Better with syrup and a properly made floatation strip I think.

[Rosie]

One comment on the Paynes boxes is that although it seems like a good idea to stuff fondant into the feeder compartment, it really isn't. Bees drown on the wet surface. Better with syrup and a properly made floatation strip I think.

Even syrup has its problems with the Paynes boxes. As the float works its way down the feeder, following the diminishing syrup, the bees in turn follow the float with brace comb. You then have to dig it all out before you top up, otherwise the float fails to rise when the feeder is filled.

To encourage a weak colony I would use 2 dummy boards in a standard brood box, leaving only one unused comb on each side of the brood. It can the be fed with a rapid feeder, kept topped up without disturbing the hive.

Steve

[Jon]

To encourage a weak colony I would use 2 dummy boards in a standard brood box, leaving only one unused comb on each side of the brood. It can the be fed with a rapid feeder, kept topped up without disturbing the hive.

Agree with Steve. Insulated dummy frames leaving one or two free combs for expansion is the way to go.

1116

[fatshark]

Even syrup has its problems with the Paynes boxes. As the float works its way down the feeder, following the diminishing syrup, the bees in turn follow the float with brace comb. You then have to dig it all out before you top up, otherwise the float fails to rise when the feeder is filled.

Steve

Having used these boxes for approaching a year now I think the integral feeder is a bit of a payne. As Gavin says, fondant causes problems and they readily build brace comb in the gap as Rosie, er Steve, says. Emptying them of fermenting syrup is not a pleasant task. I'm just now sealing mine up with gaffer tape. The boxes are big enough to include a frame feeder if needed. I've built insulated ekes to feed fondant in the winter ... and for summer (at least the summer we're having this year) feeding I tip the box slightly and then just drop granulated sugar into the angle between the floor and the wall. After dampening it stays in place and doesn't fall out of the mesh floor. I find I can add a pound of sugar easily to help captured swarms get well established.

On the plus side, they're a bit bigger than a normal nuc so very useful for housing swarms (and light enough to hold with one hand whilst up a ladder ... though of course you drop the lot when the swarm falls into the box :o), pretty robust and easy to stack.

[Adam]

I don't use the feeders in the Paynes boxes for the reasons above and only put colonies in them with good food levels.

[Adam]

I should warn you that kind of stock is quite capable of swarming in August, even with space in a full-sized brood box and, apparently, a first year queen! Maybe Feckless Drone (most inappropriate name) can expand or correct.


I don't doubt it. The mother swarmed too early and this is the outcome.

It is really growing quickly. Now in a double nuc; 5 frames over 5. I currently don't have a spare brood box - will have in a couple of days after a newspaper unite I did a week ago can be dismantled and combined into one and the box recovered. There's also plenty of stores so they are not just burning stores up and converting them into bees.

[madasafish]

Our local Association used Paynes nucs : same drowning/fermenting problems.

I have been so impressed with the performance of insulated hives I have nearly finished adding insulated sides to my TBHs. (they already have insulated roofs). The one fully insulated TBH in operation this spring has outperformed all the others. Co-incidence? No.

[darlo]

I had the opportunity last year to house a swarm in an old WBC hive, mainly as i had no Nationals to use, however I have to say, it built up well last autumn, over wintered really well, and this spring out performed the colonies housed in nationals so far as build up was concerned. The only downside was I missed the queen cell due to the number of bees, and subsequently lost a swarm.

However on reflection I can't help but think the extra skin provided that much needed insulation early on to get the bees started, and has continued to be advantageous throughout the rest of this season. So much so I plan to use WBC more. Although these poly hives are tempting me now.

[prakel]

On the subject of the integral feeders in the Paynes nuc, several years ago we purchased a dozen polystyrene mating nucs (the same -as far as I can see- as the 'doubled mating nuc' currently listed by Park Beekeeping Supplies but we sourced ours from an entirely different supplier). It was our first ever introduction to polystyrene boxes so the density didn't strike us as being particlarly low -nothing to compare it to* but a few other design faults did, not least of which was the awful built in feeder; all the same problems which people seem to have experienced with the Paynes nuc. I'd never use that kind of feeder again and infact would devise some way to permanently block it off.

*To be fair, the bees never did chew those mating nucs. But the mice did.

Another thing, for all of their downfalls they were highly efficient for their purpose -getting queens mated. I'd probably try them again but with a few modifications if it wasn't for the Lyson mini-plus hives being available at much the same price. But that's the thing isn't it, when I buy something brand new I don't expect to have to compromise or in any way to have to modify it.

[gavin]

Interesting reading that several groups and individuals have come to the same conclusion about the Paynes feeder. Fatshark, a man brimming with inventiveness, describes a dry sugar method which sounds well worth a try. Simple and easy. The small entrance should help inhibit robbing.

Speaking of which, mice have enlarged some of the entrances of the Paynes boxes I look after. I should have varnished around them too, or used a modified entrance. Kate A's simple expedient of siting the front of the box on a concrete slab looked like a good way of both inhibiting mice and helping the bees find their entrance.

Just a plug for the Swienty poly feeder which works beautifully. The slit is at the side though, so make sure that small colonies are dummied off to the side otherwise they may not travel up in the cold.

http://www.sbai.org.uk/sbai_forum/entry.php?143-How-to-assemble-your-brand-new-Denrosa-Swienty-Poly-Hives