Another young apprentice

[prakel]

A well presented episode showcasing another young bee farming apprentice:



Honey Harvest; 'On Your Farm' 06/09/2015

Ruth Sanderson visits a bee farm in Northamptonshire to see the honey being harvested. Lara Manton is learning the ropes on her Dad's farm with a view to take on and expand the business one day.

http://bbc.in/1NVwgip

[Kate Atchley]

Excellent Prakel. A wonderfully eloquent bee-crazy lass recently hooked!

I assume Gavin, and now you, spend your lives listening simultaneously to several radio channels. Thanks.

[SDM]

Sorry to put a downer on this but, her father is the director of the beefarmers association turning over>£1 million a year and similarly to Jed Marshall (on the board of beefarmers association) has brought already experienced family into the scheme. The idea was to provide training to people 16-24 who needed jobs and to bring new blood to the industry. This girl is a chemist ,Rebecca Marshall an accountant, both outside the age limits and both extremely experienced.
The whole thing smells of "jobs for the boy's "

[prakel]

An article featuring Manton, Marshall and two others:

Bee-coming a beefarmer; The Guardian 02/09/2015:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCMQFjAAahUKEwid9f-ht-XHAhXFfhoKHWSFCHc&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.theguardian.com%2Frowse-bee-a-beefarmer%2F2015%2Fsep%2F02%2Fbee-coming-a-beefarmer&usg=AFQjCNFkFetikoVwMbUIbQ3-O5OvYmsieQ&sig2=TSrZ0noPdOXwjeLAoHpz9w

[gavin]

An article featuring .....

Good stuff, thanks. I wish them all well. This initiative from the BFA is a great idea.

[Calluna4u]

Sorry to put a downer on this but, her father is the director of the beefarmers association turning over>£1 million a year and similarly to Jed Marshall (on the board of beefarmers association) has brought already experienced family into the scheme. The idea was to provide training to people 16-24 who needed jobs and to bring new blood to the industry. This girl is a chemist ,Rebecca Marshall an accountant, both outside the age limits and both extremely experienced.
The whole thing smells of "jobs for the boy's "

Not wishing to get 'into it' with anyone as this scheme was not my idea....but...

Turnover over a million???? I presume the board (now that I am not on it) have started digging up gold nuggets somewhere? You MAY be seeing some odd figures that show as turnover due to the BFA being the entity through which some EU money passes helping a project at Nottingham Trent University. Separate bank account, not BFA money, but you might be seeing it there.

The idea was to bring on new blood to both reduce the age profile of bee farmers AND to have a supply of people looking to take a bee farm forward once existing people wanted to retire. Whilst taking on those who need jobs is laudable and a future goal (older ages too) it was not one of the original aims. New blood was the main thing. If they were outside the limits of the authorities overseeing this scheme they would not qualify for assistance.

As for 'jobs for the boys'. Well I kept a little quiet on the subject as I was not be a person with any intention to ever use the scheme (we do our own training as we need). I nonetheless had some misgivings about the family of existing members being taken on as apprentices. It was the collective will of the board to do it this way however, and it is all absolutely above board.

Tony Manton is a long standing and very much valued member of the board of the BFA and on the committee before that before the change of status. In my time on both entities Ged Marshall was not a board member or director.

There are other apprentices, but these two are excellent ambassadors for the scheme and could go on to be part of the 'all inclusive' face I really wanted the BFA to show to the world while I was in the chair. Why does being a chemist or an accountant constitute a negative? I am (or rather was, I expect it is expired by now) a qualified master mariner....does that mean I should not have considered bee farming a preferable occupation? Might be the same for them. Tried other things, preferred the bees.

[mbc]

Sorry to put a downer on this but, her father is the director of the beefarmers association turning over>£1 million a year and similarly to Jed Marshall (on the board of beefarmers association) has brought already experienced family into the scheme. The idea was to provide training to people 16-24 who needed jobs and to bring new blood to the industry. This girl is a chemist ,Rebecca Marshall an accountant, both outside the age limits and both extremely experienced.
The whole thing smells of "jobs for the boy's "

Yet again pouring negativity at what most can only see as a positive scheme, what axe is it you have to grind SDM? I cannot believe you applied but were turned down for an apprenticeship, I'm sure there's more to this than meets the eye.

[SDM]

Yet again pouring negativity at what most can only see as a positive scheme, what axe is it you have to grind SDM? I cannot believe you applied but were turned down for an apprenticeship, I'm sure there's more to this than meets the eye.

Since i currently have zero comercial interest in beekeeping, i hardly havean axe to grind.
Am I the only one that thinks that senior BFA management employing family members through this scheme is questionable ? I'd love to hear of an apprentice who wasn't family and wasn't already employed in the industry taking up this scheme, but so far it seems to be rather self serving, since all the "apprentices" were extremely experienced and simply had nothing to gain from an apprenticeship. Only 1 out of 10 so far as I can tell will not inherit a Beekeeping business and she had a degree that was heavily orientated around honey bees( I wonder how much her instructors learned from her).

[Pete L]

since all the "apprentices" were extremely experienced and simply had nothing to gain from an apprenticeship.

Not so, some had no experience of beekeeping at all.

[gwizzie]

I wonder if I would get one, an apprenticeship that is. As I have no experience of beekeeping at all ??

[prakel]

so far it seems to be rather self serving

Anything which helps to upgrade the whole is fine with me. I don't doubt for one minute that there are many non bee related businesses which employ family members through the apprenticeship umbrella, although I have neither the proof or the inclination to bother looking for it (but I bet that I could find examples if I did start to look).

Regarding the claim that both Manton and Marshall are outside of the age range. That's just bad research/misinformation.

What is it with beekeepers not being able to find a bit of joy in seeing someone else doing well? I'll echo Gavin and say that I too wish them well. I'd personally rather see, for example, another beekeeper than another accountant although there are some good transferable skills there.

[SDM]

But this is clearly upgrading the few and the fact that other businesses do the same is hardly justification.
I'd also rather see another beekeeper, but this is the same beekeepers, just with their father's getting grants to train/pay them in jobs they already had. I wonder what Jed taught Rebecca about queen rearing since she had been breeding queens for Buckfast Denmark(and then selling to her father) years before her apprenticeship started.

[prakel]

The way I see it, this is the foundation generation of the scheme which, if played well, will create the good publicity that's needed to generate a wider awareness about the opportunity. Now, that's the way to get outsiders switched on.

I always remember, as a teenager, being advised to go and ask people if they want to employ me...because a lot of potential employers don't know that they do, yet! Same thing could start to happen here, outsiders with no existing connection may start to make enquiries. A lot will be turned away of course, but some beefarmers may 'get it' and take the plunge but that's only going to happen if a successful scheme generates the good publicity to get the word out there.

But that's just the way in which I look at life.

[Greengage]

Here is the job profile: https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/beekeeper.aspx
If your interested in traveling there are jobs here: http://www.apijob.com/job/13291/beekeepers-at-bogdan/
opps hundreads of jobs in beekeeping here: http://www.apijob.com/jobs/beekeeping/fulltime/

[SDM]

The way I see it, this is the foundation generation of the scheme which, if played well, will create the good publicity that's needed to generate a wider awareness about the opportunity. Now, that's the way to get outsiders switched on.

I always remember, as a teenager, being advised to go and ask people if they want to employ me...because a lot of potential employers don't know that they do, yet! Same thing could start to happen here, outsiders with no existing connection may start to make enquiries. A lot will be turned away of course, but some beefarmers may 'get it' and take the plunge but that's only going to happen if a successful scheme generates the good publicity to get the word out there.

But that's just the way in which I look at life.

Now that I agree with and I have said before that time will tell if my worries are founded or not. No doubt we'll all be watching with interest.

[SDM]

Here is the job profile: https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/beekeeper.aspx
If your interested in traveling there are jobs here: http://www.apijob.com/job/13291/beekeepers-at-bogdan/
opps hundreads of jobs in beekeeping here: http://www.apijob.com/jobs/beekeeping/fulltime/

Odd that the BFA only gets a mention at the bottom of the page under " other information " and no mention of the apprenticeship at all.. I assume it's not been updated for a while. Someone from the BFA should contact the career service, since if nobody outside Beekeeping hears about the apprenticeship it will continue to be for family members only.

[Bumble]

What is it with beekeepers not being able to find a bit of joy in seeing someone else doing well? I'll echo Gavin and say that I too wish them well.
I don't think it much matters who these current apprentices are, nor who their parents are, they're giving the scheme much needed publicity which may be enough to encourage others to step forwards. Good luck to them, theirs is a hard road to follow and they probably already know they'll never be millionaires!

[SDM]

I don't think it much matters who these current apprentices are, nor who their parents are, they're giving the scheme much needed publicity which may be enough to encourage others to step forwards. Good luck to them, theirs is a hard road to follow and they probably already know they'll never be millionaires!

Why won't they be? Have you ever looked at the financials for these " family businesses "
There's not much point in advertising it when any school leaver who enquires with the careers service will be told it doesn't exist. So far its been great advertising for Rowse and a few of its suppliers.
Are these apprentices supposed to be representative of future student ? Can someone tell me what the wage structure will be for anyone not owning the company on completion ?
Some of you must have employees, what's is the annual salary you pay( and does it justify a 3yr apprenticeship) ?

[Kate Atchley]

I don't think it much matters who these current apprentices are, nor who their parents are, they're giving the scheme much needed publicity which may be enough to encourage others to step forwards. Good luck to them, theirs is a hard road to follow and they probably already know they'll never be millionaires!

Yup! Bring them all on ... those that are great at media and communications all the better. Good for bee farmers. Good for bees. Good for beekeepers.

[mbc]

Why won't they be? Have you ever looked at the financials for these " family businesses "
There's not much point in advertising it when any school leaver who enquires with the careers service will be told it doesn't exist. So far its been great advertising for Rowse and a few of its suppliers.
Are these apprentices supposed to be representative of future student ? Can someone tell me what the wage structure will be for anyone not owning the company on completion ?
Some of you must have employees, what's is the annual salary you pay( and does it justify a 3yr apprenticeship) ?

I'm working on my second million now, gave up on the first some time ago.
You make some good points about salaries and perceived value of a three year apprenticeship, as beefarming in the uk is largely a labour of love as it stands. The apprenticeship scheme, along with other stuff the bfa is doing, will hopefully help move beefarming along the path to becoming more professional and lucrative.
I'm sure every beefarmer who employs people would like to offer a handsome salary, but when things are tight and staying afloat is a struggle, this isn't always possible. Most work available is part time and seasonal but rewarded at some way north of minimum wage.

[Bumble]

Have you ever looked at the financials for these " family businesses "
Turnover isn't the same as income. Many a 'family business' exists, and keeps ticking over, only because family members are willing to work longer hours and for significantly less of a 'wage' than an employee who has no emotional link to the business.


So far its been great advertising for Rowse and a few of its suppliers.
Why shouldn't companies that sponsor apprenticeships benefit from advertising, or is there some reason why you think anything related to beekeeping should be treated differently from any other commercial contract or commercial sponsorship - football, for example?


There's not much point in advertising it when any school leaver who enquires with the careers service will be told it doesn't exist.

The National Careers Service has a very good description of the job of 'Beekeeper' including links to the LANTRA scheme and BFA.
https://nationalcareersservice.direct.gov.uk/advice/planning/jobprofiles/Pages/beekeeper.aspx


Can someone tell me what the wage structure will be for anyone not owning the company on completion ?
Some of you must have employees, what's is the annual salary you pay( and does it justify a 3yr apprenticeship) ?
Apprentices tend to be paid NMW. On completion of the apprenticeship they either stay with the company, seek employment elsewhere, or try to set up their own business. Why should beekeeping be any different?

[SDM]

So what is the salary for a newly qualified apprentice ? Surely it's not a hard question to answer.
There's no mention of the apprenticeship in the careers service link. The BFA gets mentioned at the bottom of the page under" other info".

[alclosier]

So what is the salary for a newly qualified apprentice ? Surely it's not a hard question to answer

Actually I suspect it is. It depends on who they work for, what their contract is, are they self employed or not...

[SDM]

Self employed in Beekeeping after 3 yrs of minimum wage, I'd love to see that done. Any that could have achieved it would I presume be bust this year. I certainly can't see any bank covering setup costs and anything up to 3 yrs salary too.
So far it seems that a 3 year apprenticeship on minimum wage will lead to being seasonally employed on ......minimum wage. Unless of course your dad owns the business. That doesn't sound too appealing.
Do any of the commercial beekeepers here employ staff all year round ? What is their salary ?
I'd love to be enthusiastic about this scheme and I don't see this as picking holes, I'm just pointing out the gaping wounds .

[Calluna4u]

Self employed in Beekeeping after 3 yrs of minimum wage, I'd love to see that done. Any that could have achieved it would I presume be bust this year. I certainly can't see any bank covering setup costs and anything up to 3 yrs salary too.
So far it seems that a 3 year apprenticeship on minimum wage will lead to being seasonally employed on ......minimum wage. Unless of course your dad owns the business. That doesn't sound too appealing.
Do any of the commercial beekeepers here employ staff all year round ? What is their salary ?
I'd love to be enthusiastic about this scheme and I don't see this as picking holes, I'm just pointing out the gaping wounds .

I have 5 year round staff. I do not use apprentices, training my own people our own way to keep bees the way we want it done. They start unskilled and progress through from gopher to beekeeper to team leader. I am not going to reveal their wages on open media, but its above NMW, even for the gopher. They get more at busy times, less in winter. The two top people end up with a gross wage in the vicinity of 20K, but do a lot of hours for that. You cannot state their salary as it all depends on how many hours they work and how much holiday they choose to take, and every one of my staff is different. This year the whole crop will barely cover their wages, and as with almost all family businesses, the family come last in the queue.

You focus very heavily on the salary and what its worth, and we have a somewhat cyclical feel to this discussion. Some people choose their work for entirely mercenary reasons, seeking standard of living. If that was me I would never have left the sea and been high up in some shipping company by now, which role I was being groomed for in my late 20's. Some however, make an equally valid, yet less valued by outsiders, choice to go for quality of life. This was me. I earn well south of a third of what I would have done if I stayed in shipping, yet no way would I swap it. When I reach my ancient decrepitude (contrary to commonly held opinion I am not there YET) I want to be able to say I enjoyed my life, not that I sold my life.

If your main consideration of bee farming as a profession is based on a cold calculation of how much money you will make then forget it before you start. This is, as pointed out by others, a profession chosen because its what you want to do, and, in common with amateur beekeepers (the distinction is pretty blurred anyway) the primary reason we do what we do is because we love doing it. Sometimes hard to recall this autumn while attempting to extract your van from a swamp that was not there a few weeks earlier, removing hives from heather sites that have yielded zip all, and you get caked in mud just for the pleasure.....

The apprenticeship scheme is NOT about simply producing a supply of cheap labour for bee farmers or a subsidised cushy number for their families. It is a training scheme that is intended to develop ALL aspects of what it takes to run a bee farming business, and the curriculum is actually quite impressive. Once you have completed it you have the tools necessary to go on and run your own enterprise, though in many case I doubt the experience of the hands on stuff is adequate at that stage unless from a previous bee related background. My best two people came here with zero bee experience whatsoever.

OK, I don't use the scheme and probably never will, but please don't knock it, it is very sound and progressive, and also a work in progress, as it will change in response to the needs going forward.

[chris]

[QUOTE=Calluna4u;32384] I want to be able to say I enjoyed my life, not that I sold my life.
QUOTE]

Bravo!!!

[alclosier]

Well said.

[SDM]

Thanks C4U that answers the questions that are currently missing from the BFA information on the scheme. I'm honestly surprised at the wage rates you pay as I didn't expect there to be a sufficient margin in UK Beekeeping to cover it(I certainly don't envy you paying it this year, but hey, that's business). I'll make a guess and say you had 20 years of a well above average salary before you could afford to select your career as a lifestyle choice, its hardly fair to expect the same of a 16 yr old apprentice. My complaint all along has been the complete absence of a post apprenticeship career structure or a guideline finishing salary, made all the more suspicious by the rather incestuous selection of apprentices.
I hardly fit the category of money grabber when it comes to Beekeeping, having walked away from a branch of the same industry as you( but one with frankly obscene wages, with many captains earning in excess of 1 million a year tax free)

[Calluna4u]

Thanks C4U that answers the questions that are currently missing from the BFA information on the scheme. I'm honestly surprised at the wage rates you pay as I didn't expect there to be a sufficient margin in UK Beekeeping to cover it(I certainly don't envy you paying it this year, but hey, that's business). I'll make a guess and say you had 20 years of a well above average salary before you could afford to select your career as a lifestyle choice, its hardly fair to expect the same of a 16 yr old apprentice. My complaint all along has been the complete absence of a post apprenticeship career structure or a guideline finishing salary, made all the more suspicious by the rather incestuous selection of apprentices.
I hardly fit the category of money grabber when it comes to Beekeeping, having walked away from a branch of the same industry as you( but one with frankly obscene wages, with many captains earning in excess of 1 million a year tax free)


My family background made this the job of choice. My father started in bees in 1950, and over a period of 20 years built up to the point where he quit the day job and went full time in 1970.

I started going out with him when I was only 8, moving supers one at a time in a little barrow. I could not wait for the chance to go out with him and loved it far more than ever I loved school. I picked raspberries in the summer on a nearby farm for money of my own and one year the whole lot went into buying my first hives from outwith the family unit. I was 13 at the time. So I come from a background where bees were in the family and the attitude required to work with the bees was ingrained from my earliest years, even sleeping in my pram outside my fathers little shed at the time while my mother extracted the honey inside in the summer of 1955, which was a big year.

Many of those who go on to be big in bees are the product of a start in the trade as children with their parents. They then build on what they take over.

I came home from sea quite early, as a consequence of three factors running together. My father was becoming to unfit to continue to run both a 400 hive unit and do all the packing selling delivering etc etc, and bringing up his family on his own (mother had died youngish), and having run the bees one summer on my own with my brothers as labourers while my mother was in her final illness, it was natural that I would come home to take them over, so in 1982 we split the enterprise into two...I did the bees, he did the rest, as two separate businesses. I also had children of my own by then, and was subjected to some serious emotional blackmail by my wife. I DID miss them while away though, so it was not a hard decision to make that way. I also saw what befell older seafarers and had long since decided that my future eventually lay in bees and not at sea, but other matter accelerated that change. I had very little capital at all when I came back so did not start off with a big amount of cash behind me, and it was a real struggle.

So you cannot really compare what I did with the movement of an apprentice onwards to a fully fledged bee farmer.

However the way this happens is fairly well established in other countries. Old bee farmer wishes to retire. Young bee farmer negotiates a long term takeover deal with them. Agreed figure paid off over several seasons. You are right that this is an activity most bans will not touch due to high risk levels (they have a point).

[The Drone Ranger]

When I perfect my papier mache' Warre Hive I'm going to be rich beyond my wildest dreams
The Sun (cowpat) hive will recede into distant memory as all the neo revolutionary beekeepers convert to my system
At the end of the season the supers are just wrung out into a bucket and all the wasps stay where they belong on the outside of the hive
If it works for the Mills observatory it can work for me
viva la revolucion !!
my Spanish Villa awaits