Another way of raising a few queens ?

[Little_John]

So - no sooner had I decided to go down the AMM route, and had duly installed a couple of AMM queens - than a swarm of Heinz bees invited themselves to stay, and have shown themselves to be exceptionally well-behaved. Indeed, they've been so well-behaved that although it's very late in the season I've decided to have a stab at cloning that colony, and figure out over winter how best to run 2 separate sets of bees ...

Now what I found interesting, is that after creating a queenless nuc-sized colony from pinching a frame here, and another from there, etc., and removing the resulting q/cells after 3 or 4 days, then installing a frame of eggs/larva from the ex-swarm Heinz bees into that colony - is that a total of 8 emergency q/cells have been created.
Now it occurred to me that if those bees have the necessary resources to create 8 emergency cells, then they'd surely have enough resources to build (say) 4 regular queen cells of decent quality if given suitable grafts.

This would be such a simple queen-raising technique that I'm sure it's been done countless times over the years - but I just wondered - has anyone here ever played with this idea ? The basic idea being: do a split; remove any q/cells created; install a small number of grafts on a bar and then walk away, returning only to cage the results.

Anyway - fingers crossed there'll still be some drones flying during the first week of September ...

LJ

[The Drone Ranger]

Hi LJ
If you put in a Snelgrove board to split the colony early season you can take down the queencells they raise and give the bees grafted larva instead
Would that be much the same thing ?

[Little_John]

Sure. But what my underlying thinking was ...

If you're into raising dozens of queens, then clearly a dedicated system using a cell starter & finisher, with lots of bees, ample pollen and so on, is the way to go.

But - if only one or two extra queens are required from time to time (which might be the case with the 'handful of hives/ back-garden' type of beekeeper), then by putting grafts into a split, nothing extra is required - no special boards needed, no need to set-up strong colonies for queen-rearing - in fact nothing at all is needed - except for some means of supporting a few queen cell cups, and a number 00 paintbrush ... Hardly a major investment in kit.

It's the sheer simplicity of such a slight modification to the 'walk-away split' which has never occurred to me before. By giving the bees the 'equivalent' of emergency q/cells to raise - but in the vertical orientation from the outset - I'd bet money that the resulting queens would be of a better quality, as there would no longer be the angled cell shape when transitioning from horizontal to vertical.

Of course, there might be a flaw in what I'm suggesting, but I can't see it yet ...

LJ

[madasafish]

I use that system but using eggs vertically..see http://tinyurl.com/pvehz45

[Jon]

Anything queenless can be used to raise a few cells.
I kept a queenless colony going from mid may until last Friday raising cells.
You need to add a frame of open brood from time to time to keep the numbers up and avoid laying workers developing.
If you do an artificial swarm the part without the queen makes a good cell raiser once you knock down its own cells after 6 days.

[Little_John]

I use that system but using eggs vertically..see http://tinyurl.com/pvehz45

... and so saving yourself the cost of a paintbrush ... :)

Good to hear of someone who's doing this - typically how many queens can you raise each time in a nuc-sized colony by such a method ?



Jon: Anything queenless can be used to raise a few cells.


Of course - but why aren't people with even a couple of hives raising their own queens ? 'Cause most are not.

I suspect it may be due to those books and on-line sources which are devoted to fairly large-scale queen-rearing, which start off by saying something like: "a strong hive is needed, something approaching double brood strength." My guess it's at that point the back-garden beekeeper just gives-up the idea, without even giving it a go, because it all sounds too complex and demanding of resources.

I may be wrong, of course, but there has to be some reason underlying this widespread reluctance to raise one's own queens.

LJ

[busybeephilip]

Could be some truth in that but at the minnowburn project in Belfast that Jon is heavily involved in I think that many of the participants can see just how easy it is to rear your own queens and so hopefully they will be trying this with their own bees. Certainly I know of several who are doing just that.

Also the Ben Harden type set up or cloake set up once demonstrated gives a beginner confidence to make a stab at queen rearing

[Jon]

I always tell the group at the start of the year that even if you only have one colony you can set it up as a queenright cell raiser aka, Ben harden system.
Any situation where you separate bees and brood from a queen should have to potential to raise a few cells.
If you have access to good stock to graft from this would be perfect for raising a few queens. If you have a colony which starts just 3 or 4 grafts they usually produce excellent queens as they are very well fed.

[madasafish]

[QUOTE=Little_John;26893]... and so saving yourself the cost of a paintbrush ... :)

Good to hear of someone who's doing this - typically how many queens can you raise each time in a nuc-sized colony by such a method ?

I get about 2-3 each time. Always lose a couple due to incompetence.

Why do people not raise more of their own queens?

My theory.
1. It's a simple method. Most beekeeping books are written by people with years of queen raiisng using more complex methods.
2. Most of the classic Beekeeping Books.. (Honey and Bees) are extremely badly written, confusing and assume that grafting is THE way to go.
3. It's so simple anyone can do it. So experts don't push it as it "devalues" their expertise.

And finally: it requires no expertise or equipment. So commercially there is nothing in it for anyone. Except the (new) user.. who is often a great source of income..buying grafting tools and mini nucs and...etc.

Sounds cynical I know.

But in my view beekeeping is basically quite simple IF you understand WHY you do things.
But beekeeping is taught largely on a "do this" basis and if the teacher grafts, that is what he/she will teach..


Of course, understanding WHY bees do things takes a lot of reading cos there is not much literature available which is simply written for an ignorant layman like me. And a lot of practical experience as literature often does not cover simple things - like varroa treatment.. or poly hives .. or open mesh floors.

[busybeephilip]

reminds me of the doolittle method where the comb is cut to encourage bees to rear cells

[Jon]

I pretty much agree with what you are saying madasafish but grafting is as easy a method as any if you have reasonable hand eye coordination.
It is not expensive either as the individual cups cost about 30p each and the inserts 4p each. The cups are reusable.
The literature does try and make things seem far more complicated than they need to be.
The obvious advantage of grafting is the volume of queens you can produce for little effort and another is that grafts are resilient and dead easy to transport so you can go somewhere where there is good genetics in a colony, take a few grafts, then take them home to introduce to your cellraiser.
Bee improvement only really works at a group or association level as other than that it is every man for himself with the usual mish-mash of different sub species hybrisiding between each other.

[madasafish]

My close up eyesight is poor and my eyes grow tired very easily. So I can't focus close up enough to graft.. I can see eggs and larvae .. but detailed close up work? Nope.

And my hand shakes.. it's either gin or dementia (I am old enough:-(

[Jon]

If you work at a group or association level one guy (or gal) can graft for about 50. I do all the grafting in our group along with one other group member who has got the hang of it.

[Black Comb]

One thing about queen rearing talks is that the speaker inevitably goes on and on about selection criteria. Often takes up half the talk. If you only have a few hives (or even quite a lot) you know which is your "best" queen. The nuts and bolts of the operation are the bit that matter to beeks new to QR.

[busybeephilip]

Black Comb, yes I have seen this as well,

The best thing is to do what many of the clubs are doing in Northern/Southern Ireland and that is to start a queen rearing group using the best local material that you have access to. It just takes one person to have the enthusiasm and club support to get it going.

[Jon]

To select you really need a lot of colonies and as you say Black Comb, most beekeepers don't have the numbers.
I don't really have the numbers myself which I why I bring in the odd Galtee origin queen to graft from and I concentrate on getting the drone production maximised with Amm drones.
There is a difference between queen rearing and bee breeding which some people don't grasp.
Like you say, the first step should be getting to grips with the steps involved in producing queens and the bee breeding aspect is a much more long term aspiration.
Madasafish is right when he says that some people try and make a dark art out of the entire queen rearing process.

[Castor]

some people try and make a dark art out of the entire queen rearing process.

The truth is that it's not easy to explain, so writers tend to be proscriptive or verrrry complicated. Bee people ain't necessarily the best at explaining a process with so many variables!

My other half will drift off after a few minutes of spoken or written explanation - but give her "hands on" and she's away. Sadly she can't see any better than I can, so neither of us can graft!

[Bridget]

Very interesting thread - I have managed to get a couple of supercedure queens into apideas this year, more by good luck than anything. One survives and is now in a nuc. This method would be fine for me who just wants the security of a couple of extra queens and also a means to add a hive or two. I've printed it off so hopefully I will be able to find it again next spring!